Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I was more thinking for the sake of discussion Adler...It's plenty of names that list you've put up already, don't want the thing cover a whole page do we...

Maj Heinz-Wolfgang SCHNAUFER, 121
Obst Helmut LENT, 102
Both flying the Bf-110

Hptm Heinrich Alexander Prinz SAYN-WITTGENSTEIN, 83
Flying the Ju-88

Obst Werner STREIB, 66
Flying the Bf-110 and the He-219

Hptm Heinz ROEKKER, 64
Six kills in one night....

Maj Rudolf SCHOENERT, 64
Flying the Dornier Do-217 and Bf-110

I will add them in for you tomorrow.

 

[Schwarze_13]

Is that an MG-FF 20mm in front of it?

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Here is a picture of an MG FF Cannon.

You know, seeing so many kills on a Bf 110 somewhat disaproves the opinion that it was poor plane. In the hands of an ace it could be deadly, just like the Iron Dog P-39.

 

[lesofprimus]

Schnaufers kills were night kills, where the inadequecies of the 110 didnt rear their ugly heads....

Not too many 110 DAY fighter pilots who lived to tell the story....

 

[marshall]

I voted for Gabreski, I did it not because I think he was the best pilot of ww2 but first to make a small protest that there's no any single Polish pilot on the list and second I really don't feel that I'm able to tell who was the best.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If you wanted a Polish pilot on the list all you had to do was state which pilot you wanted and why he should be on the list. He could have been added then.

 

[Ramirezzz]

Moelders and Pokryshkin . The guys who revolutionized the tactics of their respective airforces and who were great personalities as well.

 

[marshall]

If you wanted a Polish pilot on the list all you had to do was state which pilot you wanted and why he should be on the list. He could have been added then.

I just thought that in that wide spectrum of pliots it would be nice to see one from Poland. Here's my proposal, though as I said earlier I'm not any kind of expert in these matters so I'm not able who was the best.

Witold Urbanowicz
17 official kills
15 on Hurricane mk1 (5x Bf109, 2x Bf110, 4x Do215, 3x Ju88, 1x He111) all just in one and a half month (between 18.08.1940 - 30.09.1940) one of the 109s was piloted by Hauptmann Joachim Schlichting (8 kills?) commander of III./JG 27
2 on P-40N (2x Ki-43)
unofficialy around 28 kills (He claimed 17 in BoB and 11 in the Far East)
Commander of No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron - highest Allied scoring squadron in BoB
He flew with 75th Fighter Squadron "Flying Tigers"
He mastered the art of flying, never any enemy bullet hit his plane.
His score seems to be small when compared to other great aces but Urbanowicz didn't have many occasion to fly, during the war he had a lot of diplomatic duties and was Air Attache in the USA.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

So do you want your vote changed?

 

[marshall]

So do you want your vote changed?

Yes, please.

 

[Njaco]

Great choice Marshal. I've read about him alittle and he would make a good canidate.

 

[marshall]

Great choice Marshal. I've read about him alittle and he would make a good canidate.

If anybody would like to read a bit more about him here are some links, but it's hard to find info about Urbanowicz in english.

Witold Urbanowicz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WW II ACE STORIES
Gen. Witold Urbanowicz, 88, Polish Fighter Ace in World War II - New York Times

Also I can add to list of his achievements, becoming the youngest squadron leader in whole RAF, shooting 4 enemy planes in one day, twice (27.09.1940 and 30.09.1940), on the 15th September 1940 he lead succesful attack of only 303rd squadron on a formation of 60 bombers escorted by 109s.

 

[P1234567890]

Hans-Joachim Marseille seems like he was history's best fighter pilot. Once he came into his own, his kill rate was phenomenal. On top of that, he fought against Western pilots rather than poorly-trained and equipped Russian ones.

Just imagine what he could have done on the Eastern front! He was extremely frugal with the bullets. On the Eastern Front I could imagine him shooting down 20 planes on a good day... And I imagine that he would have had *many* good days.

Also, for all of you guys voting 'patriotically', I find it interesting that you're bringing up some guys I've never heard of before, and I think that's worth discussing, but why not just say, "Obviously the best pilot of the war was <Insert one of the 3 or 4 obvious German choices here>, but have you guys heard of this guy: <Insert pilot who has less than one tenth the kills here>?

The reason I bring this up is because the poll is about who you think is the best pilot of the war. The argument, "So-and-so came from X, and therefore he was the best pilot of the war." isn't exactly logically compelling.

 

[P1234567890]

By the way, here's an interesting factoid: Hiroyoshi Nishizawa died with the rank of Ensign, despite having almost 100 kills! He was only promoted to Lt. Jr. Grade posthumously!

I guess Imperial Japan wasn't a meritocracy. (I also have a hard time understanding how they were able to be so militant and still call themselves Buddhists, but oh well.)

On a separate note, should Rudel be on the list? Technically speaking, even without any of his ground kills or ships, he did shoot down several enemy planes, and in any other country would have been considered a fighter ace.

 

[marshall]

Also, for all of you guys voting 'patriotically', I find it interesting that you're bringing up some guys I've never heard of before, and I think that's worth discussing, but why not just say, "Obviously the best pilot of the war was <Insert one of the 3 or 4 obvious German choices here>, but have you guys heard of this guy: <Insert pilot who has less than one tenth the kills here>?

Maybe it's becuase I don't think that there are "3 or 4 obvious German choices". If we have looked only on the number of kills then there would be only one choice. I stated earlier why I voted like I voted. And I'm bringing up some guy you never heard of before exactly because you never heard of him before. How can you decide who was the best if you don't even know who to consider? What If someone heard about Hartmann and doesn't heard about Marseille, can he make a good decision? I don't think so. Thousands of pilots took part in ww2 are you sure you heard of the one who was the best before? Maybe not...

 

[lesofprimus]

This is getting retarded Marshall... The reason why the Germans lead the list is simple....

They survived in a War that took thousands and thousands of airmens lives, and these few skilled pilots lived all the way through it...

U cannot and should not try to compare a guy with 20 kills to a guy that had over 200.... Its stupid to even suggest it...

There were many great pilots, including ur nomination from Poland, but in the end, numbers DO make a difference... Theres a reason why the top 3 vote getters in this Poll are Germans, and it aint because we dont have any idea what we're talking about....

 

[marshall]

This is getting retarded Marshall... The reason why the Germans lead the list is simple....

They survived in a War that took thousands and thousands of airmens lives, and these few skilled pilots lived all the way through it...

U cannot and should not try to compare a guy with 20 kills to a guy that had over 200.... Its stupid to even suggest it...

There were many great pilots, including ur nomination from Poland, but in the end, numbers DO make a difference... Theres a reason why the top 3 vote getters in this Poll are Germans, and it aint because we dont have any idea what we're talking about....

I haven't said that Urbanowicz was a better pilot than great German aces, also I don't think that you don't have any idea what are you talking about, I said that I'm not able to tell who was the best. I'm not saying that numbers don't have any meaning because efectivness would be of the things that the best pilot had to have, but does in a 1 on 1 dogfight always wins the guy with more kills under his belt? I don't think so.

 

[P1234567890]

Maybe it's becuase I don't think that there are "3 or 4 obvious German choices". If we have looked only on the number of kills then there would be only one choice. I stated earlier why I voted like I voted.

Yes, you did:

I just thought that in that wide spectrum of pliots it would be nice to see one from Poland.

I'd like to point out that citing nationality as an argument for why someone was the best pilot of WWII is NOT a compelling logical argument.

Urbanowicz is certainly worth discussing, but you can't say that he was the best pilot of the war; especially for the reason you've given. In fact, I'm not even sure you can make the argument that he was the best Polish pilot of the war; Stanisław Skalski certainly gives him a run for his money.

And I'm bringing up some guy you never heard of before exactly because you never heard of him before.

And I agree that these more obscure pilots are worth discussing, but it's absurd to say that one of them was the best pilot of the entire war just because he was born on a certain patch of ground. The only reason you're choosing Urbanowicz is because you yourself are Polish. It's not sound reasoning. Someone from New Zealand applying the same reasoning would argue that Colin Falkland Gray was the best pilot of the war. We need to be a little more objective than picking on a patriotic (nationalistic) basis. If nothing else, World War II taught us how bad patriotism/nationalism is.

How can you decide who was the best if you don't even know who to consider? What If someone heard about Hartmann and doesn't heard about Marseille, can he make a good decision? I don't think so. Thousands of pilots took part in ww2 are you sure you heard of the one who was the best before? Maybe not...

But I do know who to consider. Here is a list of the top aces from WWII:

List of World War II air aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just look at it! Look how many Germans had more than 100 kills! No pilot from any other country was even into triple digits, and there were 15 German pilots who had more than 200 kills! I think it's interesting to discuss the other pilots, but if we were being objective, then the poll above would include nothing but Germans. Seriously, Hartmann had 20 times as many kills as Urbanowicz! Even if you SQUARED Urbanowicz's kill count, he still doesn't win! He wasn't the best pilot of the war by any stretch of the imagination!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Just look at it! Look how many Germans had more than 100 kills! No pilot from any other country was even into triple digits, and there were 15 German pilots who had more than 200 kills

And many German pilots also flew over 1000 combat missions - ever look into how many missions were flown by the average combat pilot in the ETO?

 

[P1234567890]

I haven't said that Urbanowicz was a better pilot than great German aces,

Sure you did! This thread and its poll are asking who the best pilot of the war was. You've made it clear that Urbanowicz has your vote. If I am mischaracterizing your opinion, and if you actually think that the best pilot was a German, then by all means say so.

I'm not saying that numbers don't have any meaning because efectivness would be of the things that the best pilot had to have, but does in a 1 on 1 dogfight always wins the guy with more kills under his belt? I don't think so.

Marseille would have torn him to shreds. Here is an interesting anecdote about him (from his Wikipedia article):

On 3 June 1942, Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). His wingman Rainer Pöttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Zählwerk the ("Flying Counting Machine"),[36] said of this fight:

All the enemy were shot down by Marseille in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern [of gunfire] began at the front, the engine's nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this not even he could explain. With every dogfight he would throttle back as far as possible; this enabled him to fly tighter turns. His expenditure of ammunition in this air battle was 360 rounds (60 per kill).

Let's put this into perspective: Marseille attacked a formation of 6 enemy planes all by himself. That's just crazy. Then he shoots down five of them, *including 3 aces* in less time than it takes to make instant soup. These weren't rookie pilots or poorly-trained Russians, and they weren't flying obsolete planes.

The guy obviously had enormous skill.

Here's another argument in favor of Marseille: Galland thought that Marseille was the best pilot ever. In his own words:

"Marseille was the unrivalled virtuoso among the fighter pilots of World War 2. His achievements had previously been regarded as impossible and they were never excelled by anyone after his death."

Our opinions on the matter (mine included) are worth squat compared to Galland's opinion. If Galland said that Marseille was the best pilot of the war, then how can anyone here argue?