Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[Lucky13]

Same our mutual friend Hartmann, he was also a slow starter if my memory serves me right....

Here's another two....

Major Walter "Nowi" Nowotny with 258 confirmed
victories in 442 missions, 255 victories over Russian
pilots. By many considered as greatest fighter pilot
of all time, by considering relation of his victories to
his sorties.

Colonel Hermann Graf. He is credited with 212 victories,
202 of which were on the Eastern Front. He flew more
than 830 sorties.

 

[timshatz]

Go with Hartman. First, he has the numbers. Kinda like who is the richest guy? Well, it's the guy with the most money. Who is the best fighter pilot? The guy with the most kills. That's Hartman. Probably plenty of other better pilots (a very subjective evaluation) but nobody shot down more aircraft.

Another point, the guy flew pretty much continously from 1942 to 1945 and showed no signs of Combat Fatigue. That is truely amazing. Had a couple of month break here and there but that was about it. He was a machine. To handle that kind of stress on almost a daily basis and not deteriorate but seemed to get stronger is incredible.

 

[phoenix7187]

Both hartmann and marseille were well liked my many of the people under them and respected my the other side. hartmann never lost a wing man and marseille basically holds the record for aircraft shot down in a single mission and number of kills in the shorest time I think. I would say It's between these two.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Just for fun a Poll has been started.

This Poll will only be open for 30 days. After 20 days the top pics will be put into another poll which will last 15 days and so forth and will continue until we all decide who we think is the best pilot.

Everyone this is just for fun and should bring up some interesting conversations.

Obviously I can not add every pilot known to man, so if there is someone not on the list, write them down in a post with an explanation as to why they should be added and I will ad them to the poll.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I think many of the qualities needed for a good fighter pilot would be inherited. In that case I would look pretty closesly at Arthur Bishop. Between his father (William) and himself, they accounted for 73 German planes. Best father/son combo AFAIK.

Better than the President Bush Duo?


Um, Adler, how big of a percentage does a pilot need in the poll to make it to the next level? 15% or more?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Um, Adler, how big of a percentage does a pilot need in the poll to make it to the next level? 15% or more?

I figured I would just do the top 10 or top 20 by number of votes.

Not really sure yet, I have 20 days to figure it out!

 

[Marcel]

Had great problems deciding between Hartman and Marseille. Hartmann was the one who got the tactic right, but I feel Marseille was the better pilot (although probably only slightly). He was the master of deflection shooting.

 

[ToughOmbre]

Had great problems deciding between Hartman and Marseille. Hartmann was the one who got the tactic right, but I feel Marseille was the better pilot (although probably only slightly). He was the master of deflection shooting.

I feel exactly the same way. I lean toward Hartmann for sentimental reasons, not to mention his 352 kills. I've got his original signature (along with Galland's) on a print by Heinz Krebs hanging in my living room.

 

[lesofprimus]

U know, there already is a Greatest Fighter Pilot Poll....

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I think I'll vote for an American pilot in this poll, just to help get one to the next level. It's a patriotic thing, anyway, I know the German pilots will win, so I'll vote for them when the group gets smaller.

But I'm not sure if I should vote for Dick Bong or George Preddy or Robert S. Johnson.

 

[Wayne Little]

While I'm a fan of both Hartmann and Marseille, my vote goes to Heinz Bar.

Participated in the air war from start to finish, flew on all fronts, flew all the primary fighters, fought against all types of enemy in all kinds of conditions and continued to rack up kills anywhere,any time, 220 is not a bad effort, I think!

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

220 grounded pilots with one enemy pilot still flying.

Yeah, not bad at all!

 

[rochie]

i went for nowotny because 258 kills in 442 missions says a lot to me
would love to have gone for bader ( a favorite of mine) or evan saburo sakai but felt a lufwaffe pilot had to get my vote for the amount of combat they had to go through against ever increasing odds

 

[Schwarze_13]

The question that should be asked here is, what makes a good pilot? Is a pilot target practice? Is a good pilot a pilot than can stay alive? Is a great pilot a man who can shoot down enemy aircraft? Is an amazing pilot a man who can lead his whole squadron into ace status?

Indeed. What exactly is the criteria for best WWII fighter pilot?

I would have to agree with Adler that Hartmann should be considered the greatest purely for an official score that will never be surpassed.

Then there is Marseille - yes he was a brilliant pilot and superb marksman:

"Combat reports analysed in Berlin show that, at the height of his powers, he expended an average of fifteen shells and bullets per victory. More than one wingman has described the first shells hitting the nose of the enemy aircraft then 'walking' back to the cockpit area." - Mike Spick

However, Marseille was reckless and was it not for his unfortunate death he would probably have stayed with JG27 and ended up flying Reichsluftverteidigung - in which case how long would he have survived?

Moreover, how successful would Hartmann have been in the West and how long would he have survived in the RLV? Look at Barkhorn - after he was transferred to the West as Kommodore of JG6 he failed to score. Whereas Rall (who was by many of his contemporaries considered to be the best deflection shot in the Luftwaffe), when sent to the West to command II/JG11, added only 2 (those being his final 2) victories before being shot down and hospitalized.

In fairness though, some Luftwaffe pilots failed to make the transition the other way!

You may notice i have not mentioned any pilots of other nationalites. Whilst i have my favourites from other air forces, it is obvious that the winner of the poll will be a German

So - I would personally have to go with someone like Galland, Priller, Mayer, Oesau, Bühligen or Bär. These men were not only very successful in the West but were also outstanding tacticians and formation leaders.

I voted for 'Pritzl' for the same reasons as listed by Adler and because " a disagreement with Göring kept him from any higher decorations, and his outspoken refusal to obey orders he considered reckless brought him a demotion in 1943." - Donald Caldwell.

...he was NOT a "good litlle Nazi"!

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

...he was NOT a "good litlle Nazi"!

.

 

[lesofprimus]

Heinz Bar on my side as well, for the same reasons I put up eveytime we talk on this subject...

 

[Marcel]

I think I'll vote for an American pilot in this poll, just to help get one to the next level. It's a patriotic thing, anyway.

unfortunately Bob van der Stock or Gerben Sonderman are not on the list, so I cannot be patriotic. But Van der Stock mostly got his fame because he was one of the three successful fugitives of the great escape, anyway.

 

[Njaco]

Going with Heinz as well.... just to expand upon the previous posts:

First kill against French aircraft in September '39
7 victories during the Battle of France
10 victories during Battle of Britain
reached 60 kills during Barbarossa including 6 in one day 30 Aug 1941
60 kills during operations over Malta and North Africa 1942
Then to Reich Defense for his final scores.

among those kills are single and twin engined fighters and multiple engined bombers.

A very well rounded pilot operating in all theatres and scoring and surviving. You may have the highest score or the most accurate deflection shot but Heinz Bar was everything, everywhere.

 

[phoenix7187]

I was just reading about bar and you all make strong argument in his case. He did fly everything from the old 109's to the 262. Now you got me thinking.

 

[drgondog]

I personally have to go with Heinz Bär.

Short bio:

Missions flown: 1000

Theatres flown in: West, East and Med

Kills: 221 (124 in the West and 16 with the Me 262)

Shot Down: 18

Acft Flown:
Junkers Ju 52/3m
Messerschmitt Bf 109E
Messerschmitt Bf 109F
Focke Wulf 190 A-7
Messerschmitt Me 262

Units Assigned To:
JG 51
JG 77
JGr. Süd
JG 1
JG 3
EJG 2
JV 44

Units Commanded:
12./JG 51
I.JG 77
JGr. Süd
II./JG 1
JG 3
III./EJG 2
JV 44

Awards:
Silver Would Badge
German Cross in Gold (27 May 1942)
Front Flying Clasp of the Luftwaffe in Gold with Pennant "1000"
Honor Goblet of the Luftwaffe
Africa Cuff Title
Iron Cross 2nd Class
Iron Cross 1st Class (July 1940)
Knights Cross (2. July 1941)
Oakleaves (14. August 1941)
Swords (16. February 1942)

I voted for Bar but it is impossible (for me) to make an objective choice. Absent each of these guys entering combat from a level head on pass and then having an elimination 'fly off' at different altitudes to force different tactics and skills how would we have a perspective of the best combat flyer, much less the 'best fighter pilot'.

I could have just as easily picked Preddy or Hanson or Bong or Gabby Gabreski or Johnny Johnson or Stanford Tuck or anyone on that excellent list - all great fighter pilots that didn't have near the opportunity to score - and almost all of their scores over enemy territory where there was no second (or 18th) chance.

Of the German community, the ones that fought long and survived in the West should probably have a 'leg up'.. ditto some of the Jap fighter pilots and top Russians because of the quality they faced day after day.