lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Yes, Allied pilots include Soviet/Russian pilots as well....
Best WWII fighter pilot....?
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P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
On that topic, I have a question which is unrelated to aviation but I've been wondering about it for years and could never find an answer. Maybe someone here knows.
When Germany invaded Poland, France and Great Britain honored their treaty with Poland and declared war on Germany.
But the Soviet Union attacked Poland as well. Did Great Britain and France declare war on them as well?
If so, then this little factoid has been more or less extinguished from the history books. But if not, then why the hell not? In either case it's pretty interesting.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
The Soviets attacked Poland when it was under control of the Germans, unless theres something I missed here.....
Did the USA/England/Canada invade France???
Did the USA/England/Canada invade France???
No they did not declare war on the Soviets. That is a good thing as well because they certainly would not have been able to fight the combined forces of the Soviets and the Germans.
Eventually either the Soviets or the Germans would have turned on each other either way.
No the Soviets and the Germans had a pact and they both invaded Poland before Poland was conquered.
Germany invaded Poland on: 1 Sept 1939
Soviet Uniond invaded Poland on with the excuse of protecting Russians in the Polish areas on: 17 Sept 1939
This was all part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that broke up Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence.
Poland capitulated on: 6 Oct. 1939.
Eventually either the Soviets or the Germans would have turned on each other either way.
No the Soviets and the Germans had a pact and they both invaded Poland before Poland was conquered.
Germany invaded Poland on: 1 Sept 1939
Soviet Uniond invaded Poland on with the excuse of protecting Russians in the Polish areas on: 17 Sept 1939
This was all part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that broke up Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence.
Poland capitulated on: 6 Oct. 1939.
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
Hey, I just found an interesting claim buried in Wikipedia's FW-190 article:
They cite Weal 1998, p. 92.
If this is true, then Rudorffer might have the record for the number of planes killed in one mission.
They cite Weal 1998, p. 92.
If this is true, then Rudorffer might have the record for the number of planes killed in one mission.
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
No, Poland hadn't capitulated yet at the time of the Soviet invasion.
D-Day?
I agree that it probably would have been stupid to declare war on the USSR, but Britain and France had a treaty with Poland... It seems morally questionable to declare war on Germany because of the treaty, but not the USSR for doing exactly the same thing that Germany did.
In any case, are we absolutely sure that Britain and France DIDN'T declare war on the Soviets? At the time they were allies with Germany. They were supplying Germany with massive amounts of strategic resources such as oil and food.
I can imagine that they did declare war on the Soviets, but then rescinded it as soon as Hitler attacked Russia. Bigger things have been made to disappear from the history books, especially when concerning the Soviet Union. For example, the U.S. and Great Britain invaded the Soviet Union after World War I, and yet that little fact seems to have disappeared from history.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
It is great courage, but it also requires good confidence in your skills. If you overestimate your chances, your dead.
While Marseille was one of the best pilots of WWII, his action on June 6 1942 agains't 16 P-40's was really more of a terrific "bounce" than a dogfight. That he was able to destroy so many in a single bounce is almost too amazing to believe. But it happened, so I see your point.
What Erich Rudorffer did sounds also pretty amazing, and James E. Swett, with his 7 kills (in under 30 minutes?) time sounds also pretty amazing.
"In any case, are we absolutely sure that Britain and France DIDN'T declare war on the Soviets? "
You can be absolutely sure on that.
During Winter War, between Finland and SU 30th Nov 39 - 13th March 40, there was a risk that France and GB would drift to war against SU and there were for ex plans to bomb oil industry around Baku from a/fs in Middle East, just because soviet export of significant amount of oil to Germany, but nothing came out of those plans. Except some recon flight over Baku by RAF Blenheims.
On Rudorffer, if you dig some of his claims deeper you might find some suspicious. And it seems that of Novotny's first 10 victories most were "air" with little "victory" included. That at least by the studies of some serious Russian researchers. I cannot say anything of his later career. It simply was that some pilots were more reliable claimers than others.
Juha
You can be absolutely sure on that.
During Winter War, between Finland and SU 30th Nov 39 - 13th March 40, there was a risk that France and GB would drift to war against SU and there were for ex plans to bomb oil industry around Baku from a/fs in Middle East, just because soviet export of significant amount of oil to Germany, but nothing came out of those plans. Except some recon flight over Baku by RAF Blenheims.
On Rudorffer, if you dig some of his claims deeper you might find some suspicious. And it seems that of Novotny's first 10 victories most were "air" with little "victory" included. That at least by the studies of some serious Russian researchers. I cannot say anything of his later career. It simply was that some pilots were more reliable claimers than others.
Juha
No they did not declare war on Russia and they did not rescind a declaration of war.
If there had been a declaration of war it would have been announced and common history today. No declaration was announced. Britain and France protested the Soveit Invasion and condemned it but nothing else.
P1234567890 said:
What are you talking about????
Edit I finally realized what you are talking about. Sorry...
Yes it is true that allied nations including the United Kingdom (Britian and Ireland), Japan, The United States, France and Canada supported the Russian "White Army".
However it was not an invasion of Russian per say. The Expeditionary forces were allready there to prevent strategic places from falling into German hands after the Russian Offensive of 1917 was stopped by the Germans by launching a counter offensive.
Then in 1918 they intervened in the Russian Civil War and supported side of the White Army who were fighting against the Communists until 1920.
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
You're probably right, but this means that Britain and France did not live up to their treaty with Poland, at least not in spirit.
It's true: The U.S. invaded the Soviet Union after World War I. It was done in the context of the Russian Civil War. The Western Allies fought alongside the 'White Russians' against the Bolsheviks.
Weird History 101 - Google Book Search
See page 267.
Here is another good reference: Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And another: Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The fact that the U.S. and Britain sent so many troops deep into Russia in order to fight against Communism is one of the main reasons why the Communists were so paranoid about the West for the next six decades.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not pointing out any of this in order to garner sympathy for Communism. I think that it's terrible and that the Western Allies probably did the right thing at the time.
But I do think that it's very interesting that an event which really happened has been so well censored and forgotten.
This is why I am asking suspicious questions about whether or not the Allies declared war on the Soviets after they attacked Poland.
In any case, this is all very off-topic. I don't know what the rules are around here about bringing up topics which are irrelevant to the original intent of the thread, and if this is a big no-no, then I apologize.
No they did not live up to there treaty at all. Did they invade Germany or come to the aid of the Polish?
No...
P1234567890 said:
Yes I know. If you go back and read my post you will see that I said:
Edit: I realize now what you are talking about
And then go and read what I posted underneath that and you will see that I posted the same information that you just posted.
I haven't participated this poll because it's very difficult to say who was the best. But what a heck, I voted W/O Illu Juutilainen because I know he had many good qualities.
Cons: He seemed not to be very reliable claimer.
Pros: Many Finnish pilots testified that he had very good situational awareness.
He was a very good pilot
He was a good shot
He shot done a quite a lot enemy planes even if not over 90, not even 70.
He was a good teacher in air tactics and in air combat in general and was always ready to give advises to others and was able give them in humorous and easily remembered ways
His plane was never hit in his numerous air combats
His many times rather harsh leg pulling and practical jokes made probably good on his units morale during the long war.
He was also a very good recon pilot.
And I have one more candidate to the poll list, Captain Helmut Lipfert, 203 kills, because
He seemed to be a reliable claimer
He was a good teacher, liked by his men and by those Hungarian and Romanians he taught.
And he wrote a very good memories
Juha
Cons: He seemed not to be very reliable claimer.
Pros: Many Finnish pilots testified that he had very good situational awareness.
He was a very good pilot
He was a good shot
He shot done a quite a lot enemy planes even if not over 90, not even 70.
He was a good teacher in air tactics and in air combat in general and was always ready to give advises to others and was able give them in humorous and easily remembered ways
His plane was never hit in his numerous air combats
His many times rather harsh leg pulling and practical jokes made probably good on his units morale during the long war.
He was also a very good recon pilot.
And I have one more candidate to the poll list, Captain Helmut Lipfert, 203 kills, because
He seemed to be a reliable claimer
He was a good teacher, liked by his men and by those Hungarian and Romanians he taught.
And he wrote a very good memories
Juha
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
Wow, isn't it funny how people love to vote patriotically... Come on, you can't *seriously* think that Illu Juutilainen was the *best* pilot of the whole war! You're just saying that because you're Finnish!
I want someone from Bulgaria to weigh in on this debate and argue that Stoyan Stoyanov was the best pilot of the war.
I want someone from Bulgaria to weigh in on this debate and argue that Stoyan Stoyanov was the best pilot of the war.
P123...
Pah, I voted him because of the reasons I gave. And BTW his exchange rate was better than that of Hartmann because he was never hit in air combat, Hartmann lost at least 4 planes, possible more. And because nobody could win war by himself, it was very important to advise greener ones. And seriously I don't know who was the best, but that same to all us. You might think that you know, but what you know for sure? Do you know how many of Hartmann's 352 were officially accepted by the OKL or how many planes he really shot down? So there is much guesswork and feelings on this question, so we can vote as we wish, seriously or not.
Juha
Pah, I voted him because of the reasons I gave. And BTW his exchange rate was better than that of Hartmann because he was never hit in air combat, Hartmann lost at least 4 planes, possible more. And because nobody could win war by himself, it was very important to advise greener ones. And seriously I don't know who was the best, but that same to all us. You might think that you know, but what you know for sure? Do you know how many of Hartmann's 352 were officially accepted by the OKL or how many planes he really shot down? So there is much guesswork and feelings on this question, so we can vote as we wish, seriously or not.
Juha
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I don't know enough about the Finnish end of things to make a comment on individual FAF pilots but what they did with their sometimes outdated and varied equipment against a much larger foe is remarkable
Would the circumanstances be the same if they were fighting the Germans as opposed the Russians ?
Would the circumanstances be the same if they were fighting the Germans as opposed the Russians ?
About the last thing I'll give few examples, Rall shot down 8 times, Batz shot dwon 4 times, Rudorffer shot down 16 times, Bar shot down 18 times. Though I don't know how many of these shot downs were made by enemy fighters. But I guess it wasn't that rare.
And last thing, I don't know why you are trying to offend me. I just posted my opinion, if you don't agree with that opinion just say you don't and why you don't agree with it. Then I can try to answer to your arguments and we can have a discussion.
And why not? This is the first round an Juutilainen was a great pilot, so he belongs in the next one.
And about patriotically votes: I'm sure there are probably many pilots who could be up there, but didn't make a name for themselves because the didn't get the chance. And if their countrymen wouldn't mention them, nobody would never know who they were. I would choose Gerben Sonderman (see my port 50 in this thread) if he were on the list, only to let you know about him.
And remember, you're here to learn, not to try press your believes on others.
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
Sure, but at least they declared war. Apparently they didn't even do that against the Soviets...
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
Why not? Because Juutilainen wasn't the best pilot of the war by ANY stretch of the imagination, and voting for him the best just because of what it said on his passport is completely uncompelling.
Then go ahead and say, "Hey, check out so-and-so; he was a great pilot!". That doesn't mean that you have to vote for him as being the BEST pilot ever!
I'm all for learning. I encourage you to encourage us to learn about pilots like Sonderman. But it's absurd to suggest that he was the best fighter pilot of the war!
I am here to learn, but I simultaneously find it to be absurd when people vote for someone who has one tenth as many kills as the top Germans as the best pilot ever, and ESPECIALLY if they do it just because the guy came from their country!
Do you understand that you can tell us about a pilot without automatically claiming that he was the best fighter ace of the war?
On a related note, does anyone else here find it to be absurd that Beurling has more votes than Rall, Barkhorn, and Nowotny ALL PUT TOGETHER?!? Their combined kill total was 834, and Beurling shot down only 31. Does this make any sense?!? (And I'm Canadian!)
Seriously people, it's pretty absurd that Witold Urbanowicz has more votes than any of these three German pilots. Where's the objectivity here?!?
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the kill table on this page:
List of World War II air aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Your opinion
How on earth would you know? Maybe he was better than any of them, but he didn't fly in the war for more then 4 days, so hadn't a chance to prove himself. I'm not saying he was, but I'm only showing you that there can be different ways of looking at "best".
If you think most kills means best then that is your opinion. Let others have their own. People tend to pick their heroes from their own country, I don't think you should judge that here. If you have a problem with that, just keep it for yourself. If you can prove someone was a bad pilot, please do that with facts.
I think I did in post 50, so yes. But remember, "best" is subjective at best, please let other people have their own opinion.
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