Best WWII fighter pilot....?

Best Pilot Pt. 1

  • Hermann Graf, Germany

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Werner Mölders, Germany

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Japan

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Hans Wind, Finland

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Grigoriy Rechkalov, Soviet Union

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nikolay Gulayev, Soviet Union

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kirill Yevstigneyev, Soviet Union

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dmitriy Glinka, Soviet Union

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mato Dukovac, Croatia

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Alexandru Şerbănescu, Romania

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Oiva Tuominen, Finland

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Constantine Cantacuzino, Romania

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sergey Luganski, Soviet Union

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Brendan Eamon Fergus "Paddy" Finucane, UK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ján Režňák, Czechoslovakia

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Adolph 'Sailor' Malan, South Africa

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dezso Szengyorgyi, Hungary

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bob Braham, UK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Colin Falkland Gray, New Zealand

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Neville Duke, UK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Charles H. MacDonald, USA

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Adriano Visconti, Italy

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • George E. Preddy, Jr., USA

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Douglas Bader, UK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lloyd Chadburn, Canada

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bob "Butcher" Hansen, USA

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Arthur Bishop, Canada

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Erich Rudorffer, Germany

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufner, Germany

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    76
  • Poll closed .

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and courage?

Here's a little story about Marseille: (From Hans Joachim Marseille)
Perhaps they mean June 3, 1942 when Marseille claimed 6 Kittyhawks (per some sources, though 7 in OKL claims list)? He made no claims on the 6th. On the 3rd his claims and those of JG53 occurred at about the same time. A total of 9-10 Kittyhawks were claimed; 5 Sdn SAAF lost 4 Kittyhawks plus another 'force landed' back at base, an unknown RAF unit lost 2 Hurricanes apparently at around the same time; the South Africans downed at least 3 Ju-87's the Bf109's were escorting; per "Fighters Over the Desert" by Shores and Ring p. 120. The maximum claim accuracy of 70% (counting the force landing and assuming the Hurricanes were really lost in the same incident) is excellent, the minimum of 40% (counting only 4 Kittyhawks and assuming the Hurricane losses might have been to other causes) is still probably no worse than the WWII average.

On a related thread 'Hartmann's claims', two other examples of Marseille's claiming accuracy were given: Sept 1 when he claimed 17, the Germans claimed a total of 26 or 27 (varies by source), a total of 20 Allied fighters were lost, again excellent apparently ~75% claim accuracy. And, another example where it wasn't as good, Sept 15 '42 Marseille again claimed 7 Kittyhawks of 20 total Kittyhawk and 1 Spit claimed by the Germans at around 1800; but in that case only 6 Kittyhawks total were lost around that time, one attributed to AA by the Allies, plus 2 Spits time unknown, max rate ~40%, min ~25%, depending whether you accept the AA attribution and include the Spits or not.

Rudorffer flew in West too; some of his claims in Tunisia don't check out well. For example February 9th, 1943, he was credited 8 victories (6 P-40 and 2 P-38's); his unit II./JG 2, was awarded a total of 15 victories that day, 12 P-40's and 3 P-38's. The P-40's were F's of the French GC II/5, who lost 3. The P-38's were of the 94th FS, who suffered no losses; per "Focke Wulf 190 in North Africa" by Arthy and Jessen. Prorated accuracy of his claim, <20%.

It's would be a big job to do such analysis broadly, and involves uncertainties and ranges of numbers as given above, but still worthwhile IMO, even to see a few examples, as *one* input into 'who was best'. Although IMO that's a quite unanswerable question, because depends on lots of stuff besides how many planes were 'really' downed, like how hard was the overall situation for the ace's side.

On East v West front though, the German fighters probably had at least as high an overall kill ratio v the Desert Air Force in Marseille's time as the they did v the VVS in Hartmann's time, which was mainly after the 'happy times' on the Eastern Front of '41-42, he didn't start until late '42. I say that based again on "Fighters Over..." summaries of day by day combats, the Bf109's were posting a quite high real fighter-fighter kill ratio v the Hurricane/P-40/Spit opposition in that period; as say compared to total reported Soviet and German fighter air combat (and 'failed to return' in Soviet case) losses in 1944, which was still, perhaps surprisingly, in the Luftwaffe's favor but not by as high a ratio as v the Desert AF mid 1942. But as noted on that thread, a highly reliable analysis of Hartmann's claims v Soviet losses in particular incidents is yet to surface AFAIK, analyses that have been published are controversial.

Joe
 

Hey chill out allright!

He gave the reasons he voted for that person and he has every right to do so. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, he is entitled to his. So back off!
 

All of that is nothing more than your opinioin, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one!
 
Your opinion

Not really; there are only so many 'reasonable' criteria on which a pilot can be judged, and we've already seen many of them in this thread:

1. Total number of kills,
2. Kills / combat mission ratio,
3. Marksmanship,
4. Piloting ability,
5. Variety of planes flown,
6. Number of fronts fought on,
7. Number of times shot down vs. kills,
8. Quality of opponents and enemy equipment,
etc.

Judging pilot skill inevitably boils down to some kind of weighted combination of these measures. My claim is that for *any* 'reasonable' weighted combination of these 'reasonable' measures, the top pilots will be German.

That's not particularly subjective.


Not really. You can't base your definition of 'best' on complete hypotheticals. Well, you can, but it isn't very reasonable.

If you think most kills means best then that is your opinion.

I don't. My definition of best includes some kind of weighted metric of the qualities I listed above. If I thought that most kills meant best, then I would have voted for Hartmann, but I didn't. I voted for Marseille.

Let others have their own. People tend to pick their heroes from their own country, I don't think you should judge that here. If you have a problem with that, just keep it for yourself.

Why? I believe that World War II taught the world exactly how bat nationalism is. This is a discussion forum pertaining to World War II. If people here are being nationalistic, then I argue that it's fair game to criticize them for it, especially if they are saying things which are unsound.

I think I did in post 50, so yes. But remember, "best" is subjective at best, please let other people have their own opinion.

I'm all for people having their own opinions, but if their opinions are nationalistic, then I think that it's ok to criticize their reasoning. Why not?
 
Hey chill out allright!

He gave the reasons he voted for that person and he has every right to do so. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, he is entitled to his. So back off!

I'm new here, so I'm not familiar with the culture. I saw some other posts in this thread which made it seem like it's ok to debate.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I do think it's ok to criticize people for voting nationalistically. If World War II taught us anything, it's that nationalism is bad. If it is not ok for me to do this, then just say so and I'll stop doing it. No problem.
 
By the way, in retrospect I am willing to concede that Juutilainen was a great pilot and should be on the list. I took issue with voting nationalistically, which is the main reason for my objections.
 
P123, what is wrong with voting nationalistic? Maybe someone from Finland has more of grasp of why their particular favorite pilot should be on the list. And I really don't want to get into politics but....

If World War II taught us anything, it's that nationalism is bad.

That line really got me going. Nationalism is bad? What is wrong with having pride in where you come from? We should all be one global community, nameless and faceless?

That is exactly what is wrong with the world - one side of the mouth spits something like that and the other side claims to be mexican, african, arab, even Swedish ) I hear Lucky getting the herring ready!) while parking their butt in another country.

Debate is fine but brow-beating isn't debate. Marcel had every right to list Juutilainen and from what little I've read about him, he was an excellent pilot. Going by your list, even Marseilles only achieved three or four out of the eight you stated. If he had said he voted Juutilainen because he likes the color of his eyes, I would support you in your contention.

Discussions like this are hardly black and white. Like Adler said its for fun and thats a very big grey area because personal opinion is involved.

And for the record I have hardly ANY clue about American aces - my South Jersey butt has always been interested in the Luftwaffe, and throw in a few from the RAF.
 
That line really got me going. Nationalism is bad?

Are you kidding?!? Yes, nationalism is VERY bad! Neither world war would have been possible without nationalism! Thinking that your own group of people is superior to another group of people NEVER ends well!

What is wrong with having pride in where you come from?

Having pride in where you come from may be how things start, but they get out of control *very* quickly when it comes to nationalism.

If you want to have pride, then let it be pride in yourself. The fact that Wayne Gretzky was the greatest hockey player who ever lived doesn't somehow make me a better person just because I'm from the same country. It's just bad reasoning. Be proud of yourself for the things that you've achieved. Don't be proud of yourself for the things that others who happen to be from the same country have achieved. And the opposite is true as well: Don't be biased in favor of someone just because they're from the same country as you.

We should all be one global community, nameless and faceless?

What are you talking about? When did I ever advocate abolishing all borders?!? All I'm saying is that people should be a little more objective in their reasoning. Voting nationalistically is not ok.

Marcel had every right to list Juutilainen and from what little I've read about him, he was an excellent pilot.

I criticized the vote because it seems to me like there are a lot of people here who just coincidentally happen to believe that the best pilot of the war was someone from their own country. If a German votes for Hartmann or Marseille, then that's one thing, but if a Dutch or Polish person votes for a Dutch or Polish pilot as having been the best pilot of the war, then there's an obvious lack of objectivity going on. Perhaps Juutilainen is a bad example, because he was the top-scoring non-German pilot of the war. Nevertheless, there are literally *dozens* of Germans ahead of him on the list, so I hope you understand why I found it suspicious that a Finnish person was voting for him.

Going by your list, even Marseilles only achieved three or four out of the eight you stated.

Really? I think he does well in at least six of the categories.

If he had said he voted Juutilainen because he likes the color of his eyes, I would support you in your contention.

Color of his eyes / color of his passport... What's the difference?

Discussions like this are hardly black and white. Like Adler said its for fun and thats a very big grey area because personal opinion is involved.

I'm new here, and I don't really have a feel for the culture here yet. I'm not quite sure how serious this forum is. World War II was a pretty serious event, so I imagine that some spirited (albeit good-natured) debate is in order. If I'm overstepping, then by all means correct me. I already seem to be getting some negative feedback on my anti-nationalism comments, so that's telling me to lighten up, which I'm very happy to do.

By the way, here are some more criteria:

1. Total number of kills,
2. Kills / combat mission ratio,
3. Marksmanship,
4. Piloting ability,
5. Variety of planes flown,
6. Number of fronts fought on,
7. Number of times shot down vs. kills,
8. Quality of opponents and enemy equipment,
9. Surviving a huge number of combat missions,
10. Never losing a wingman,
11. Number of missions in which multiple kills were scored.

If anyone else wants to add to this list, feel free!
 
Don't see anyone on that list that shouldn't be there except for the last entry of Bishop with one kill

Fair enough, but if this is the case, then there are more than a hundred Germans currently not on the list who should be included...

Shouldn't every single German on this list List of World War II air aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia from Gustav Rödel upwards be a contestant in the poll?

I'm not trying to say that they should actually be put into the poll... That would be silly since it would make the poll outrageously long. But it does show how many outrageously good German pilots there were, and I think that it puts a lot into perspective.
 

I don't want to discuss your ideas about nationalism here, as I feel it belongs to the "political" forum. But you must remember that people vote for things they know best and usually that are things from their own corner of the world.
And why is it different if Germans vote for a german pilot against Juha voting for a finish one? You already admitted his choice was a good one. Is this because the Germans confirm your own opinion?

I'm all for people having their own opinions, but if their opinions are nationalistic, then I think that it's ok to criticize their reasoning. Why not?
Fine, so you don't mind me criticizing yours?

While you seem to have an scientific approach, you really haven't, as you seem to pick your criteria to be in favor of your own bias towards German pilots and some are still subjective. Your subjectiveness (and this counts for all people here) can be seen by the criteria you pick. And your criteria are flawed to say the least. For instance criteria 1. So based on this you'll pick the german that shot down 5 I-15's over a Brit who shot down 3 Bf109's?
Furthermore several of your criteria are not relevant as they depend on circumstances rather than the quality of the pilot. Number of fronts fought on really isn't in the pilot's hands and neither is the variety of planes flown.

Not really. You can't base your definition of 'best' on complete hypotheticals. Well, you can, but it isn't very reasonable.

To show your flawed logic I will make an example of comparing Hartman vs Sonderman. It's not to take away any of the greatness of Buby, but just to show the mistake you make. Hartman shot down most planes but it took a while and many combat missions before he started to pile up victims. Sonderman shot down 4 planes in his first (and only) 5 combat missions. This is already better, but also gives Sonderman a ratio of about 1:1, which is better than any German ace discussed here. Further more, Sonderman did this with inferior material against superior numbers (Dutch numbered to Germans 1:10) and superior tactics, also a combination no German pilot can claim. The Germans never had inferior planes and most of the time had a better strength then 1:10. So now I proved that Sonderman was superior to Hartman by carefully choosing my criteria. So what I'm saying is there is no objective way to chose here.
 
pbfoot
"Would the circumanstances be the same if they were fighting the Germans as opposed the Russians ?2

Short answer is no. Reasons, while some Soviet units were very good, some were poor. IMHO the quality of units varied more in Soviet AF during the WWII than in other major AFs. Generally speaking tactically Soviet formations became good in 43 but at that time they still tended to open fire too far away. But that is only a generalization. There were from 39 onwards Soviet pilots who were good shots and knew the axiom "Get very near before opening fire." In 1944 they were dangerous opponents; their best units were at that time probably as dangerous as Germans. But before 44 I would say that Germans would have been much more difficult opponents.

P1234567890
" Because Juutilainen wasn't the best pilot of the war by ANY stretch of the imagination…"

Now Juutilainen had clearly better exchange rate than Marseille, who seems to be your choice, 91:0 vs 158: at least 6, four planes lost at Kanal front (against 7 claims) and IIRC he was shot down at least twice in North Africa. We can argue how important the exchange rate was. To Finns, who didn't have a/c industry to speak of, it was very important indeed. Germany wasn't ready to sell but a token number of 109s to Finland before the summer 44. Finns had to even in 1943 bought more Morane-Saulnier M.S.406s and Curtiss Hawk 75s from German war booty debots, some of which had probably stand outdoors almost 3 years before the deal, to get even some sort "new" fighters to replace those lost or too wore. And when the fighter recon Flight of Recon Sqn 16 finally got rid from its Gloster Gladiator Mk IIs during the summer 44 its "new" planes were Polikarpov I-153s, so still old biplanes.

Juutilainen got kills in 3 different planes, Fokker D.XXI, Brewster Model 239 and Bf 109G. All rather different types needing very different tactics if one want to be successful. Marseille got all his kills while flying Bf109s.

Now it was much easier to shoot down Hurricanes while flying Bf 109F than shoot down newer Soviet fighters while flying Model 239, I would say that it was easier to shoot down Hurricanes when flying Bf 109F than when flying Model 239.

etc


Juha
 
I don't want to discuss your ideas about nationalism here, as I feel it belongs to the "political" forum. But you must remember that people vote for things they know best and usually that are things from their own corner of the world.

Except that the topic of nationalism is relevant here because people like you are promoting pilots from your own country who have less than 10 kills as being the best pilot of the war. It's great that you're teaching us about obscure Dutch pilots, but ultimately there's a reason why he's obscure and why the people on the list above are not.


Not really. We can all get together and decide on any reasonable criteria we want for judging pilot skill. Then we can create some kind of weighted metric on it, and apply it. I claim that this is as objective a measure as we could possibly come up with, and I further claim that for any reasonable metric, the Germans will come out at the top of the list.

And your criteria are flawed to say the least. For instance criteria 1. So based on this you'll pick the german that shot down 5 I-15's over a Brit who shot down 3 Bf109's?

No, my proposed metric takes *everything* into account and in fact 3 109 kills would probably count more than 5 Sturmovik kills.

Furthermore several of your criteria are not relevant as they depend on circumstances rather than the quality of the pilot. Number of fronts fought on really isn't in the pilot's hands and neither is the variety of planes flown.

Variety of planes flown in which the pilot scored kills should count for something. It shows versatility. For example, it's impressive that Juutilainen scored kills in three different planes. Is it as important as total kill count? No, but it should count for at least something.


And this would help Sonderman's score using the metric I am suggesting, but ultimately you have to factor in total number of kills, number of missions flown, etc. in which Sonderman is WAY behind. If you ONLY use ratio, then sure, Sonderman does very well. But that's a totally unreasonable way to measure pilot skill. You have to measure all of the relevant criteria involved, which is what I'm suggesting. For example, ratio should obviously be tempered by number of missions flown, and it isn't hard to make the argument that a ratio of 0.58 over 442 missions (Nowotny) is a whole lot more impressive than a ratio of 1.0 over 5 missions. Do you seriously think that Sonderman would have been able to keep up that ratio if he'd flown hundreds of missions?!?

Further more, Sonderman did this with inferior material against superior numbers (Dutch numbered to Germans 1:10) and superior tactics, also a combination no German pilot can claim.

And again that would reflect well in Sonderman's overall rating, but it isn't NEARLY enough to lift him above the top Germans.

The Germans never had inferior planes and most of the time had a better strength then 1:10. So now I proved that Sonderman was superior to Hartman by carefully choosing my criteria. So what I'm saying is there is no objective way to chose here.

That's just it: You had to carefully choose your criteria. I'm saying that we should compare the pilots based on *all* relevant criteria weighted in some reasonable way. Your criteria are unreasonable because you cherry-picked them in order to make Sonderman look good. It's pretty hard to argue that judging pilots based on *all* relevant criteria is unreasonable.

The bottom line is this: Under any set of reasonable criteria which does not ignore any important facts and which is weighted in some reasonable way, the top Germans will always come out on top.

This shows that it's not all subjective.
 

You make some compelling arguments, and I concede that when I said that Juutilainen wasn't the best pilot of the war by any stretch of the imagination, I was being too harsh. I agree that he does very well in a lot of important categories.

Nevertheless, I argue that if you factor in all of the important criteria, Juutilainen still isn't up there with the top Germans. He probably was the best non-German ace of the war, though.

Maybe that would be a good way of doing things: Have one poll for who was the best German pilot, and have another one for the best non-German pilot.
 
Having pride in where you come from may be how things start, but they get out of control *very* quickly when it comes to nationalism.

If you want to have pride, then let it be pride in yourself.

I don't think being proud of your country is bad, while being proud of yourself is the only good kind of pride. If you never admire what your country does right, or what your countrymen do right, you won't ever be very liked by your countrymen.

That's just a fact.

And Hitler wasn't just proud of his country when he started WWII, he himself wanted to be dictator of the world and rule. And in the end what Hitler did to his country, making stupid decisions and not listening to good advice, was just plain stubborness in the face of defeat.
 
Not enough time too give a long response:
Except that the topic of nationalism is relevant here because people like you are promoting pilots from your own country who have less than 10 kills as being the best pilot of the war.
I'm not, I'm just using Sonderman to get my point through.
It's great that you're teaching us about obscure Dutch pilots, but ultimately there's a reason why he's obscure and why the people on the list above are not.
Yes, the reason was that his air force surrendered after 5 days, nothing to do with himself.
I am teaching you about these men to give them the credit they deserve. The only reason that I must be a dutchman to give credit to a Dutchman is that these guys are unknown to the rest of the world.

Not really. We can all get together and decide on any reasonable criteria we want for judging pilot skill. Then we can create some kind of weighted metric on it, and apply it.
Okay what about this: Being able to take off under fire, being out gunned, out numbered(vastly), against a tactically and technically superior and experienced opponent. Having no speed or altitude advantage whatsoever. And still being able to shoot down 3 opponents without being shot himself. That must count for something. It proves that he was one hell of a pilot. The best? I don't know, but neither do you.

I claim that this is as objective a measure as we could possibly come up with, and I further claim that for any reasonable metric, the Germans will come out at the top of the list.
And I claim that you'll never be able to have an unbiased opinion. You put out these "metric" out of your own hypothesis that the German pilots were the best. But you do not see that yourself. You proved that by your first reaction on Juha's choice. "No way that anyone could have been as good as the Germans." The reason that you had to reconsider after tremendous facts from Juha enhances my view about you. You reacted out of your own bias without considering even the facts. And I don't think you were wrong in doing that. I only think it was wrong that you condemn people because of having a biased opinion, while your own opinion was as biased as theirs abnd preaching against them

No it shows he had the time to fly different planes and his airforce was in the war long enough.


Yes on the last question, he had it undoubtedly in him, but nothing to prove as he didn't fly more.. And consider the circumstances in which he got his kills. No altitude advantage, totally surprised by superior numbers of enemies, no speed, nothing of that kind. Can you say that about the Germans? As I said, you must be one hell of a pilot to be able to do that.

And again that would reflect well in Sonderman's overall rating, but it isn't NEARLY enough to lift him above the top Germans.
According to your standards. I think there were many pilots that could be considered the best, not only the list above. These are unknown, unsung men, never made a name for themselves because of circumstances, independent of themselves. Using clinical statistics like you do doesn't do justice to them. I'm only using Sonderman as an example, but there are many more from every nationality.




Your criteria are unreasonable because you cherry-picked them in order to make Sonderman look good.
Now you get the hang of it, exactly my point.


The bottom line is this: Under any set of reasonable criteria which does not ignore any important facts and which is weighted in some reasonable way, the top Germans will always come out on top.

This shows that it's not all subjective.
Yes it is, you choose yourself which is important and judge by that, that's subjective.
 
I would place "Pat" Pattle as my top pick. Unlike many of the pilots listed he had to fight primarily in aircraft that were inferior to his opponents, if not obsolete. His victory total is listed at between 40 and 50 with some saying as high as 60 victoriers. Although from South Africa he was a regular RAF pilot and rose to the rank of squadron commander during the thick of the Greek campaign where his leadership qualities were adamant. His aerial markmanship was reknown in the service. You can read more with this link.

Commonwealth biplane fighter aces - Marmaduke Thomas St John 'Pat' Pattle

As for US Marine pilots I would place the top Marine Wildcat pilot, Major John L. Smith on the list. 16 of his 19 victories were in Wildcats over Guadalcanal where he commanded the first fighter squadron there, VMF 223. He developed and trained his pilots in the tactics that were highly effective against the Japanese earning him both the Congressional Medal of Honor and the Navy Cross. As a gruff by the book Marine officer he wasn't as glamorous as hi XO Marion Carl. IMHO Boyington only showed true leadership when he was a POW and sober.

John Lucian Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mike T.
 

Are you 100% sure he only voted because of nationalistic reasons. He stated the reaons why.

You could have countered as to why you disagree but to tell him he is wrong because he did not vote for a German.

Also nationalistic things are not necessarily bad. I am proud to be an American, is that a bad thing.

Are you kidding?!? Yes, nationalism is VERY bad! Neither world war would have been possible without nationalism! Thinking that your own group of people is superior to another group of people NEVER ends well!

That is bull! There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from and being proud of where you come from does not mean you think that you own ethnic group or country is superior to anyone.

I am an American/German. I am proud of being American and German.

Anyone else here proud of where they come from? I sure as hell hope so!
 
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