Better German naval strategy 1930-1945? (9 Viewers)

[Thumpalumpacus]

So, in WWII, when the French cave in a couple months why wouldn't you think that the Soviets could be overcome quickly as well?

Distance, mainly. A WWII army has a much larger logistics train, even if the Heer is still using half-a-million horses.

 

[Shortround6]

Distance, mainly. A WWII army has a much larger logistics train, even if the Heer is still using half-a-million horses.

Use Russian horses ?

Logistics are above a corporal's paygrade, They should have appointed a Sargent to be supreme leader.

 

[SaparotRob]

Bunker C is about one grade thinner than asphalt. Slight exaggeration
View attachment 794930
It needs to be heated, usually with steam pipes in order to get it to flow, especially in ships operating in cold water.

What they could do with it post WW II is not what they could do with it in the 1930s. Yes with good fuel heating and good filters you run diesels on it.
But at what cost (space and maintenance) in the 1930s.
In the history of marine engineering they often used commercial ships for testing. Once they got something to work in the lab/shop/test bed they stuck it in one or more small ships to see how well it actually worked in service. Ferries and coastal passenger ships were popular. If they broke they weren't too far from shore and/or were not far from regular maintenance.
German navy historically thought their machinery builders could do better than they actually could or at least they hoped they could.
With the needed power rising at exponential rates successful commercial use was no guarantee of successful high speed military use in early adaptations.
First commercial ship with steam turbine.
View attachment 794931
a little under twice the tonnage of the HMS Viper and 1/3 the power, 1901.
It was used for speed, fuel consumption and other performance evaluations like weight and space of engine rooms compared to other steam plants. It also stayed in service until 1951/52. Within 5 years the Cunard line specified turbines on the Lusitania and Mauretania (took about 5 years to complete).
The Steam turbine worked out rather well, but a high powered triple expansion steam engine had some drawbacks, especially for high speed use.
Pushing the boundaries does not always work so well even though the goal does get reached.

That is an attractive little ship. I'm having trouble reading her name. A little help?

 

[Shortround6]

That is an attractive little ship. I'm having trouble reading her name. A little help?

King Edward

 

[z42]

If you plan to have a flex fuel (HFO and Diesel) in your boiler, it is relatively easy.

Of course. My parents house, like many other houses in my country, had an oil burning boiler for hot tap water as well as for pumping through radiators. Since replaced by a heat pump, but anyway. It used light fuel oil, which except for a lower tax rate, is (or at least a few decades ago, was) identical to road diesel.

If you heat diesel under pressure it starts separating into even lighter petroleum products...and as the Japanese found when they tried to burn diesel in unmodified boiler, they explode!

My understanding is that the problems the IJN encountered were due to using raw crude oil, after the Allies destroyed their refineries. Crude oil contains all the light volatile fractions that are refined to petrol, (LPG even?), so that's an entirely different kettle of fish than using diesel oil.

 

[z42]

But when D class is being laid down, for all intents and purposes, even when Scharnhorst is laid down there isn't an AGNA. There might never be an AGNA in a better naval strategy and/or the class restrictions might be done much differently e.g. much lower carrier limit (say 25%) for higher light cruiser limit (say 45%).

And I'm still sure, I can replace the triple 28cm turrets with dual-twin 20.3cm ones on the Panzerschiffe to get the reclassified as treaty cruiser if capital ship tonnage becomes a problem.​

Raeder has spent over a 100 million Reichsmarks, and more/less a year's production on Panzerschiffe D. P!$$ing it away is something Germany can't afford.​

Sure, I was thinking of the time when they laid down the Hippers, when the AGNA was in effect.

I understand the motivation for scrapping the D's was that they thought they were too weak against the Dunkerques, and they wished to get started with the Scharnhorsts ASAP. In retrospect, a couple of D's could have been useful in WWII, even if that would have meant the Scharnhorsts and Bismarcks were delayed. But I guess they couldn't foresee that at the time.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Use Russian horses ?

Logistics are above a corporal's paygrade, They should have appointed a Sargent to be supreme leader.

I seem to remember reading that part of the scorched-earth retreats was the killing of livestock.

 

[z42]

Bunker C is about one grade thinner than asphalt. Slight exaggeration
It needs to be heated, usually with steam pipes in order to get it to flow, especially in ships operating in cold water.

Yes, i know. But that was somewhat mature technology at the time, since heating the fuel was also required for spraying it into steam boilers. So whatever the challenges with running diesel engines on HFO were, figuring out that you need to heat the fuel so you can pump it wasn't one of them.

Pushing the boundaries does not always work so well even though the goal does get reached.

That's of course true. It's easy to say which approach works in retrospect.

 

[EwenS]

My understanding is that the problems the IJN encountered were due to using raw crude oil, after the Allies destroyed their refineries. Crude oil contains all the light volatile fractions that are refined to petrol, (LPG even?), so that's an entirely different kettle of fish than using diesel oil.

Not all crude oil is the same. Some of the oilfields in the DEI produced crude that, while not ideal, could be used in ships' boilers.

Japanese use of crude pre-dated the damage to their oil refineries in the DEI. They started using it before the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June 1944. It was the end of that year before the bombing campaigns against DEI facilities really got going. In early 1944 they moved most of their fleet down to the Singapore area to be near their oil supplies. But come mid-1944 the problem seems to have been accumulating enough fuel oil in time for the major battles they knew were coming up. The oilfields were still producing and the refineries were refining all that they could, but it still wasn't enough. Then add in the fact that the IJA & IJN didn't pool their reserves most of the time.

The story of Japan's oil woes in WW2 is not easy to follow and their are a number of myths about what went on. This study is the best I've thus far found on the subject. Reasons for using crude start about p70

https://fireonthewaters.tripod.com/JapanOilPuzzle.pdf