kettbo
Senior Airman
I always thought the 20mm gun pod was "R-6"
saw this noted as "R-5" in one of my Osprey booklets
who is right?
saw this noted as "R-5" in one of my Osprey booklets
who is right?
Bf 109 gun pods
- Thread starter kettbo
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Hello George
probably both, according to Fernández-Sommerau's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual during the first part of 1944 the meanings of a couple R designations changed, and one of these was the designation of the heavy fighter version with gun gondolas, its designation changed from R6 to R5. Sounds odd and probably produced some byrocratic confusion, but byrocrats sometimes make confusing decisions.
Juha
probably both, according to Fernández-Sommerau's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual during the first part of 1944 the meanings of a couple R designations changed, and one of these was the designation of the heavy fighter version with gun gondolas, its designation changed from R6 to R5. Sounds odd and probably produced some byrocratic confusion, but byrocrats sometimes make confusing decisions.
Juha
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Rustsatz R-6 was the underwing gondola field conversion set using the MG151/20 cannons.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Messerschmitt Bf 109 variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
R I
ETC 501/IX b bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment for an SC 250 or SD 250 type 250 kg (550 lb) bomb
R II
ETC 50/VIII d bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment, for four SC 50 type 50 kg (110 lb) bombs
R III
Schloß 503A-1 rack for one fuselage drop tank (300 L/80 US gal)
R IV
Two 30 mm (1.18 in) Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 underwing gunpods
R V
Recon fighter. Camera mounted under fuselage.
R VI
Two 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 underwing gunpods with 135 rpg
R VII
Peilrufanlage
.....?? What is this?
R I
ETC 501/IX b bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment for an SC 250 or SD 250 type 250 kg (550 lb) bomb
R II
ETC 50/VIII d bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment, for four SC 50 type 50 kg (110 lb) bombs
R III
Schloß 503A-1 rack for one fuselage drop tank (300 L/80 US gal)
R IV
Two 30 mm (1.18 in) Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 underwing gunpods
R V
Recon fighter. Camera mounted under fuselage.
R VI
Two 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 underwing gunpods with 135 rpg
R VII
Peilrufanlage
.....?? What is this?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Pretty sure the R7 was the direction finding loop
Correct,installation of the direction finding equipment including the DF loop antenna.
Steve
Hello
according to Fernández-Sommerau's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual up to mid 44 there were a bit different Rüstsätze, but because of the ETC 50 bomb rack was dropped (although limited field use continued) and Peilrufanlage was no longer necessary on late a/c fitted with FuG 16 ZY there was need for only 5 Rüstsätze, so the heavy fighter designation was changed from R6 to R5.
Juha
according to Fernández-Sommerau's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual up to mid 44 there were a bit different Rüstsätze, but because of the ETC 50 bomb rack was dropped (although limited field use continued) and Peilrufanlage was no longer necessary on late a/c fitted with FuG 16 ZY there was need for only 5 Rüstsätze, so the heavy fighter designation was changed from R6 to R5.
Juha
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Then throw away this book.
I googled into this Fernández-Sommerau's Messerschmitt book because Juha mentioned it.. I found some internet forum discussion between learned members, mr. Fernández-Sommerau come unter some what you can call "barrage" especial for his handling of Rüstsätze.. allaged it changed, but people were very sceptical, also because he seem to present this unusual theory that the Rüstsätze showed in designation, ie. back to old myth of "G-6/R6" and like.. so given the comments, I agree with Dennis.. all papers I see on G series gondola is always Rüstsatz VI... on K series it changed to Rüstsatz IV. F-series I am not sure, but only a select batch designed F-4/R1 could mount gondola, others had not the necessary preparations, like standard in G or K series.
- Thread starter
- #11
kettbo
Senior Airman
ok, strong feelings for the gondola weapons being R-6.
I wonder if anybody here is tracking which units carried gun pods and when.
Noted JG-27 was still using them May 44
Guess I'll have to dig up some books
I wonder if anybody here is tracking which units carried gun pods and when.
Noted JG-27 was still using them May 44
Guess I'll have to dig up some books
Not R-6, at best R6 but they used the roman number VI to avoid confusion with Rüststand/Rüstzustand numbers. A Bf 109 G-6/R6 is a G-6 with Rüststand/zustand R6 = bad weather fighter with additional navigation/blind flying equipment.
The author of the book mentioned above probably just did what many others did - mixing up Rüstsatz and Rüststand numbers.
Why to cast away a good book? It has its problems/errors but so have all other 109 books I have. There were 3 long threads in TOCH on the book and really it wasn't the last time when we talked on R designations of 109s there.
The F-S's logic can be seen here "Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual", by Marco Fernández-Sommerau - 2 - The Luftwaffe Archives Records Reference Group
message #10 and 16
Olivier Lefebvre's comment #12
Charles Bavaroise's counter arguments here "Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual", by Marco Fernández-Sommerau - 3 - The Luftwaffe Archives Records Reference Group
messages #4 and 13
F-S's answers #12 and 15
Olivier Lefebvre's comment #16
Juha
On 109F-4/R1 see messages #10 and 12 in "Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual", by Marco Fernández-Sommerau - 2 - The Luftwaffe Archives Records Reference Group
Juha
A bit harsh Deniss. I've got Marco's book but being of "a certain age" I do have problems with some of his conclusions,certainly in the area of the "Rs". I don't want to enter into a mind numbing discussion of roman and arabic numerals or the way they may have been written and I don't have access to most of the original documents which he has used.
For all that it is not a bad book and he has obviously done a lot of hard work and research. He is entitled to his opinions,which are interesting. There hasn't ever been a book published on any aircraft which didn't contain some errors and this one is no exception.
A lot of vitriol has been aimed at both Marco and Classic (the publisher) but we'd be far worse off without them.
Cheers
Steve
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The 3cm Mk108 cannon entered service during the fall of 1943. Use of a hub mounted Mk108 cannon should have largely negated the need for wing mounted cannon on late war Me-109s.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
So is this book worth owning? I really don't have a great 109 book in my collection and would like to add one.
- Thread starter
- #18
kettbo
Senior Airman
Ok, big can of worms.....
I noted in Michael Helm's Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, 3.42 - 12.44
I/JG26 lists for May Bf 109G-6 and Bf 109G-14 later in the year, good so far, know these were not 'gunboats'
So
JG 27, known to have the 20mm cannon pods on the pictures I have seen May'44 in the description
lists similar Bf 109G-6 and later use Bf 109G-14
The UNIT knew they were gunboats in May 44....yet, how would higher HQ know that they were so-equipped?
I'd for one think someone would like to know the difference (better bomber-killers/maybe not the unit you'd want mixing it with the escort fighters)
Would anyone care to comment on who made the call, gun pods or without?
Those with pods, mission-specific or daily wear? Seems an easy off-on compared to uploading a B-17, B-24, Lancaster or Halifax.
And finally, I have seen 1, maybe two pictures of a Gustav with Mk 108 gun pods
Would these be in one unit (who? when?) or scattered around?
How many made? I say 'very uncommon'
I noted in Michael Helm's Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, 3.42 - 12.44
I/JG26 lists for May Bf 109G-6 and Bf 109G-14 later in the year, good so far, know these were not 'gunboats'
So
JG 27, known to have the 20mm cannon pods on the pictures I have seen May'44 in the description
lists similar Bf 109G-6 and later use Bf 109G-14
The UNIT knew they were gunboats in May 44....yet, how would higher HQ know that they were so-equipped?
I'd for one think someone would like to know the difference (better bomber-killers/maybe not the unit you'd want mixing it with the escort fighters)
Would anyone care to comment on who made the call, gun pods or without?
Those with pods, mission-specific or daily wear? Seems an easy off-on compared to uploading a B-17, B-24, Lancaster or Halifax.
And finally, I have seen 1, maybe two pictures of a Gustav with Mk 108 gun pods
Would these be in one unit (who? when?) or scattered around?
How many made? I say 'very uncommon'
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If you mean F-S's I thought it was worth owning, one main complain was that there are not line drawnings on different versions and subtypes, but I also own Prien/Rodeike F, G and K book, which is good but a little dated and Valtonen's which both have many good line drawnings, so I didn't need one more book with them. I have also some other books on Bf 109 and on the a/c of the Finnish AF so I can cross-check the info. I'd recomend that you read the links I gave in my earlier message, there is also one more thread, the first one, on the discussions in TOCH on F-S's book on that site. Read those and draw your own conclusion. I used mostly F-S's, P's/R's and Valtonen's books and Raunio's Lentäjän Näkökulma II when I check something on Bf 109Gs.
Juha
