Bf 109 = hard to fly?

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Hello,

Popularily, it's common to heard that the Bf 109 was a hard airplane to fly, specially in take offs and landings. However, given that there are so many myths about WWII in general, I'm wondering how the 109 was really evaluated under critical eyes at the time, both by the Luftwaffe and the Allies.

Someone has information about this to share?

Well it depends on what you are doing and the particular model. There was considerable change over time as the plane got more powerful and heavier.

Landing and Take Off
None of the models were the easiest to land, but lots of the WW2 tail draggers were tricky. Take the Mustang, that was harder to land then a Spit because of its higher landing speed and its poorer vision at landing (yes even the 51D).

The biggest problem with both landing (especially) and take off for all of the 109s was ground looping because of the narrow undercarriage. Poor visibility on landing was another.

But, the 109E was better than the 109G (or K). This was because it had better low speed aileron response at low (ie landing) speed, better than the comparable model Spit in fact. And it had better visibility than the later models.

Plus there was less power hence less torque/etc effects, non of which helped the ground loop (etc) issues. So there was more margin for error in power handling in the eaelier models. The later ones with the bigger more powerful engines were much more twitchy.

Hence the reputation of the 109G as a real killer. While the 109E was merely tricky, that extra weight and power in the 109G series made it a real handful.


Flying and Combat

The two main problems were elevator and ailerons. Both of which 'heavied up' at high ASI, to the the point of immovability.
This is not a condition that got better with later models.
In a high speed dive it was impossible to pull out enough to black you out (easily done in say a Spit or a Mustang). The many cases of 109 pilots going in in because they could not pull out is often mentioned.

Note this was not a mach effect, the 109's mach limit was 0.75-0.78. This was just poor elevator design.

The ailerons were woeful, ok'ish at lower speed (though Spits could easily out roll them even with a non clipped wing), they locked up at higher ones.
As mentioned above in the 109E at very low, landing speed they were good. The 109G was significantly worse.
The small cockpit didn't help because it was hard to get any leverage on the stick.

Other factors. Lack of rudder trim. This was an issue that got worse over time as the power level increased. I supposed you could always tell a 109 pilot ... because one leg was massively muscled.

The slats, which though they helped (when they worked) in aiding take off and landing (and slow speed stuff). They could (because they were simply just a mechanical mechanism) operate asymmetrically, if on one wing they open and the other it doesn't, causing yaw and other affects. Eric Brown mentioned that he found that turbulence, following another aircraft, could cause them to snap open and shut, obviously throwing it around a bit as lift varied wing to wing.

Overall
It was a delicate aircraft. Even in the E the pilots notes warned not to get into a yaw in a dive, because the wings would fall off. Willy made it be as light as possible (much lighter than a Spit, let alone a Mustang). That compromised strength. Though there was not necessarily a 1:1 direct a link between weight and strength, the Spit was lighter than a Mustang C/D but was stronger in G limits for example, but Willy probably went a bit too far and again this could have been fixed for the later models with more powerful engines.

The limit of the design was probably the excellent F. To move to the G really needed a thing like a 'Typhoon to Tempest' (or 190A to 190D) overhaul.
Bigger wing, longer fuselage, etc.
I am always amazed that they didn't do it, quick crash program and it could probably have been done very quickly, heck just a new larger wing alone would have helped massively.

That being said, the 109, right to the end, was always very dangerous in a good pilots hands. It along with the Spit were the kings of the climbers (and they vied with each through the war for first place).

At very high altitudes (it's real home), where the ASI dropped, some of the issues (like ailerons and even the elevators) were not such a problem (since they were not mach related they were pressure related which means ASI related).

Which means if you met a 109G (or a K) at 35,000 feet it was going to be a much tougher plane to match than if you met it at 20,000ft or 10,000ft (at 5,000ft anything could cause it real problems, Mossies dogfighted them at low level and held their own). Well at least until the NO2 ran out.....If the German engine manufacturers had ever managed to build (say) in '43 good high altitude engines then the 109s would have been much nastier 'up there'. Fortunately they really never did.

So, speculative history. A quick, crash upgrade to the 109 in (say) late '42 early '43, plus a decent high altitude engine and the US escorts would have had a much harder time of it.

But, as for why they didn't. Well it was easy to build. Bit like a Volkswagon in a sense, yes that swing axle was disasterous (and often fatal) and front end stability was non existent... but it was simple and cheap to build. They kept trying all those prototypes (you know the German aircraft and engine manufacturers probably made more prototypes during WW2 than the UK, US and USSR all put together), but none actually did as well for high altitude work, despite all its flaws, as the 109.

Which is why always, by any reckoning, the 109 (despite its flaws) is always in the 'big four' of best WW2 aircraft.
 
The wings would fall off it you yawed into a dive?

Not only not likely, but pure wrong. The Bf 109 was a premier fighter that took a back seat to NOTHING.

It was dangerous to enemies until the day of the surrender and even after in other hands, short range notwithtstanding.

Tell me what could outclimb it on a regular basis.
 
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Actually, the 109 at over 30k ft was like balancing on a tight rope (at least according to comments I have read from Luftwaffe pilots).
 
The wings would fall off it you yawed into a dive?

Not only not likely, but pure wrong. The Bf 109 was a premier fighter that took a back seat to NOTHING.

It was dangerous to enemies until the day of the surrender and even after in other hands, short range notwithtstanding.

Tell me what could outclimb it on a regular basis.

(1) Read the pilots notes and

(2) The Spit and 109 (dual 'king of the climbers') swapped places all the time on climbing, depending on the time and version (and engine specs).


Eg look at, late war, a Spit XIV vs a 109G ...but on the other side a Spit V 9lbs boost vs a 109F equivalent model ... It really went backwards and forwards.
 
Actually, the 109 at over 30k ft was like balancing on a tight rope (at least according to comments I have read from Luftwaffe pilots).

Depends on the model. It was tricky, they all were at that height. Even take a late model Mustang and, at 30,000ft do to tight a turn .... and recover (if the wings hadn't fallen off) at 20,000ft.
No fun up there in those days.
 
I often wonder what happened to the undercarriage support structures in the event of a heavy landing?

from the Bf109E-1 E-3 Handbuch:

109Eundercarriage1-001_zpsa3ee745b.gif


and the K-4 Handbuch:

109Kundercarriage2a.gif


The undercarriage pivot support mechanism might have been okay under normal loads but what happened to it in the event of heavy or asymmetric landings?
 
The biggest problem with both landing (especially) and take off for all of the 109s was ground looping because of the narrow undercarriage. Poor visibility on landing was another.

Well, yes and no. The issue was addressed several times here : the undercarriage was narrow, but other contemporary fighters had narrow undercarriage too, most notably the Spitfire. What seemed to make the undercarriage trickier was how the wheels were pinched.

As for yaw in full-speed dives, it's bad and dangerous in every plane, not only the 109s, though I wonder if the matter wasn't actually less serious in the 109, because otherwise I doubt the Germans would have gone on building 109s without any rudder trim, if yaw at high speed had been more dangerous in 109s than in other fighters.
 
Ground visibility could have been no worse than a F4U or a P-47 and the issue of narrow gear isn't so much the placement or spacing of the tires, look at a F4F's track...very close to that of the Bf109.

It was the camber of the wheels that caused the aircraft to be tricky if the weight was shifted to one or the other of the tires. The positive camber on the uncarriage of the Bf109 was such because of the thickness of the wing.
 
snip!

Which means if you met a 109G (or a K) at 35,000 feet it was going to be a much tougher plane to match than if you met it at 20,000ft or 10,000ft (at 5,000ft anything could cause it real problems, Mossies dogfighted them at low level and held their own). Well at least until the NO2 ran out.....If the German engine manufacturers had ever managed to build (say) in '43 good high altitude engines then the 109s would have been much nastier 'up there'. Fortunately they really never did.

Snip!

Aside from being vastly outnumbered and declining overall pilot skills,
Would it be fair to say the Bf109G-6/U3 and Bf109G-14 both with MW50 were in their element vs 9th USAF planes?
This is to say very low, low, and medium altitudes? I always heard Boom and Zoom from above at low and medium low and medium altitudes were best for the Gustav maneuvering

o At military power the P-47 seems to be faster but at WEP the speeds are extremely close.
o At low altitude, the P-47s cannot dive away
o it is my understanding that at lower altitudes, the P-47 had a very generous turn circle
o the Gustavs had much better rate of climb
o P-47 has a better roll rate unless it is encumbered by bombs and or rockets (their main mission)
o "some" Gustavs sneaking in to intercept would seem harder to spot then a Squadron of P-47s on the move or beating up a particular section of earth intent on their proximity to trees, power poles and lines, and of course the earth and AAA fire.
 
Sorry OldSkeptic,

The wings of the Bf 109 did NOT fall off. It was and remains a very strong airframe. They did have an early issue with vibration and the tail separating, but that was cured rapidly.

As for COULD the wings break, ANY aircraft can be broken by the idiot holding the stick, even a Pitts Special that can handle ±12 g. There is not a single fighter from WWII that cannot be broken with mishandling, but it was not a problem for normal combat operations. They DID lose some to enemy fighters, takeoff and landing accidents, and operational issues, but the airframe was NOT delicate in any sense of the word. The landing gear was somewhat weak, but a broken gear is not a wing falling off.
 
Sorry OldSkeptic,

The wings of the Bf 109 did NOT fall off.

Some more reading on this subject is required. Three quotations that came to mind right away;

'The outstanding disadvantage of the Me 109 F is that the wings are not as stable as they might be. At least two pilots, including the redoubtable Hauptmann Balthasar, kommodore of the Richthofen Geschwader, have been killed within the last three weeks by tearing the wings off their Me 109s when trying to follow Spitfires in a snaking dive. After a fast dive pilots have to pull out fairly gradually.' - Interrogation of prisoner of war Hauptmann Rolf Pingel, I/JG 26

'In 1941 we received the improved F series. ... The result was fierce aerial combat, for which we had to push our machines to the limit. ... Without any damage from enemy fire, the wings became prone to coming off in flight and as a result of this we lost some very successful pilots. To land after a days combat with the wings distorted out of shape was commonplace.' - Hauptmann Josef Haiböck

'... I could turn on a plate, the wings being white from condensation and to pull it out of a dive at 700 km/h was no problem. The Me109 wasn't strong enough to do that ...' - Major Erich Rudorffer (on the Fw190)

EDIT: typos
 
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Like I said, any aircraft can be broken by the pilot. But the Bf 109 was not and IS not a delicate aircraft.

And no flyable Bf 109 ever made it to 700 mph.
 
And no flyable Bf 109 ever made it to 700 mph.

Newsflash to our American friends from that semi-mythical place called The Rest of the World: The metric system - try it, you'll like it!

Just kidding, Greg.
 
When I posted, the post above said 700 mph. OK, I'll buy 700 kph, but Bf 109 wings don't fall off. The 109 had its faults, but shedding wings wasn't one of them.

You can use whatever measurement system you like, it makes no difference to me whatsoever ... unless I'm building an airplane with SAE rivets and screws. Then I need the correct drill sizes for the rivets and screws, and those aren't metric. I suppose I COULD switch to metric rivets and screws ... but I'm working on other people's airplanes and they get to choose the fasteners we use.

Really, it makes no difference to me at all.
 
Early Bf 109F had a structural problem in the tail caused by harmonic frequencies from/with engine vibration, maybe they had some problems in the wings as well.
Can't remember of similar reports in the 109G.
 
When I posted, the post above said 700 mph. OK, I'll buy 700 kph, but Bf 109 wings don't fall off. The 109 had its faults, but shedding wings wasn't one of them.

You can use whatever measurement system you like, it makes no difference to me whatsoever ... unless I'm building an airplane with SAE rivets and screws. Then I need the correct drill sizes for the rivets and screws, and those aren't metric. I suppose I COULD switch to metric rivets and screws ... but I'm working on other people's airplanes and they get to choose the fasteners we use.

Really, it makes no difference to me at all
.

As a matter of interest, does the US military use the metric system? I guess they would certainly require pilots, gunners and anyone who had anything to do with weights and measures to be fully conversant, right?
 
As a matter of interest, does the US military use the metric system? I guess they would certainly require pilots, gunners and anyone who had anything to do with weights and measures to be fully conversant, right?
The US Army was metric when I was in it in the early 70's, the rifle ranges were in meters, and when I got to Vietnam all the maps were metric. But when we talked about aircraft altitudes, it was in feet, but map elevations was in meters. It might have confused some at first, but I soon got used to it.

I've got one of my brothers old Army field manuals on 81mm mortars, from the mid 60s , it's metric.

Learning the metric system in the Army gave me a leg up in the civilian world when Detroit started going metric.
 
I am familiar with the tail issue and the fix as well as the weak landing gear, but have never heard of wing problems, Denniss.

Luftwaffe pilots believed there was a problem with the wings.

Rolf Pingel delivered a nice shiny Bf 109 F to the RAF and in the report of his interrogation, under the paragraph Me. 109 F, it states:

"The outstanding disadvantage of the Me.109 F is that the wings are not so stable as they might be. At least two pilots, including the redoubtable Hauptmann BALTHASAR, Kommodore of the Richthofen Geschwader have been killed in the last three weeks by tearing the wings off their Me.109s when trying to follow Spitfires in a snaking dive. After a fast dive pilots have to pull out fairly gradually."

Whether there was a real problem or not is beside the point. There was a perception in the Luftwaffe that there was and Pingel is not the only German source source for this.

As for the RAF, it seems to have cottoned on to this fairly quickly. Bader developed the tactic of half rolling and following the Bf 109 F in a dive, rolling back expecting his target to be ahead of him and pulling out much more gradually from the dive than he could in a Spitfire. This allowed him to pull his nose up through the target and make a shot. In his words the German pilots were " a bit porky on the old joystick".

Cheers

Steve
 

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