Bf-109 variants

[meatloaf109]

Always loved the "E", but the early "G"'s were not without their charm as well.
(And I always thought that the spiral was for intimidation of bomber crew. Go figure!)

 

[davparlr]

What was the thought behind the spiral?

Hypnotize tail gunners?

 

[Airframes]

Most descriptions of the spiral suggest it was intended to put gunners off their aim, although, as has been mentioned, this appears to not be the case. The gyroscopic effect certainly works for that role, making the spinner appear, from head on, to be rotating erratically, in a 'jumping' motion, and there is evidence that this was used, as well as off-centre 'spots' on spinners, on some Typhoons, in Normandy, to spoil the aim of flak gunners.

 

[stona]

The spiral was a tactical recognition marking. It is perfectly clear from the surviving documents that this was it's purpose. It had nothing to do with allied air gunners, birds scaring, hypnotism, UFO deterrence or anything else.

First sentence of the July 20th order, which is specifically for the application of the spinner spiral:

'With effect from today THE RECOGNITION MARKINGS of our own aircraft in the Western Area...........will be changed as follows'.

In the exclusion clause for aircraft not requiring this marking the term 'recognition marking' is used again. The term or the similar 'identification marking' appears in various German documents and several ULTRA intercepts relating to the spiral and other tactical markings.

From 20th September 1944 the spiral marking was extended to include all Luftwaffe fighters and reconnaissance aircraft and an ULTRA intercept of that instruction (to a ferrying Geschwader) survives.

The formal white spiral evolved from similar markings developed by some Jagdgeschwader as an aid to recognition. It is reasonable to assume that they in turn were inspired by the spirals applied to some units' aircraft's spinners as Gruppe/Staffel markings. Someone may have noticed how visible these markings were and adapted them accordingly though we'll probably never know for sure.

For the Gruppe/Staffel marking, typically the base colour of the spinner would be the Gruppe colour and the spiral would be in the Staffel colour. It is not a huge leap to a white spiral over a dark background.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Airframes]

As I mentioned in my post Steve, "Most descriptions suggest ..... appears not to be the case".

 

[stona]

Yes Airframes....and please don't think I was 'aiming' at you, I understood your post and apologise if mine led to any misunderstanding.

I just wanted to re-iterate to all and sundry that the spiral marking is well documented and its purpose and origins known.

Oddly the 'bird scaring' theory keeps emerging nowadays in relation to the similar spiral marking on the boss of the fan at the front end of many civil jet engines

As the person who launched the myths thread a while back obviously knew, some myths refuse to die!

Cheers

Steve

 

[BiffF15]

Modern airliners have a painted spiral spinner as well (look inside the engine the next time you fly). I always assumed it was for determining if the engine was running. Assumption on a crowded flight line is it's noisy, folks are wearing hearing protection which makes it difficult to determine where engine noise is eminating from, and to make it an easy visual indicator of a motor in motion...

 

[stona]

Modern airliners have a painted spiral spinner as well (look inside the engine the next time you fly). I always assumed it was for determining if the engine was running. Assumption on a crowded flight line is it's noisy, folks are wearing hearing protection which makes it difficult to determine where engine noise is eminating from, and to make it an easy visual indicator of a motor in motion...

Exactly.....nothing to do with birds

Cheers

Steve

 

[Airframes]

No problem Steve.
And by the time birds spotted the whirling spiral in current jet intakes, they'd be sucked through the engine and blown out the back in toasted bits!

 

[stona]

No problem Steve.
And by the time birds spotted the whirling spiral in current jet intakes, they'd be sucked through the engine and blown out the back in toasted bits!

The theory was that the spiral makes a sort of flashing or pulsing effect which might deter birds. This has been propagated by none other than Rolls Royce who state on their web site that the spiral is,

"to indicate when the engine is rotating while on the ground. In flight these swirls flicker as the engine rotates at high speed, scaring birds and allowing them to fly clear of the engine."

I read somewhere that there was some research done to establish whether the spiral might have a deterrent effect on birds, a bonus property of the marking, by Richard Dolbeer who is something of an expert in the field of bird strikes. The conclusion was that it did not, whatever Rolls Royce might think.

I have known someone who has worked on the flight line at BHX for many years and he believes that it is to warn humans when the fan is rotating. He also told me that some aircraft with engines mounted high up at the rear of the fuselage do not have this marking, though I only have his word and experience for that.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

I doubt that. Erich Hartmann flew his first combat mission 14 October 1942 in an Me-109G4. For the next 31 months variants of Me-109G were all he flew.

I believe Gunther Rall commented (after the war) that Me-109F was his favorite. Rall's first combat was during May 1940. Early enough that he flew combat missions with Me-109E, F and G. He also flew Fw-190 while posted as an instructor.

 

[Milosh]

Hartmann could have flown the F while a flight school.

 

[FranchToest]

Thanks for posting everyone Nice to see such a cool community.

 

[parsifal]

I recon that trying to paint these spinners in a model situation would be challenging

 

[razor1uk]

Hartmann could have flown the F while a flight school.

It is as possible as its improbable that the unknown G4 used early on by EH, might have been made from a recycled F4 airframe/components...

Painting the spinner could be challenging, although a cocktail stick, some blu-tak, a long bristled brush that has a nice tapering shape to it when damp and a steady hands could do well. Perhaps practice with the ends of small egg shells, ping pong balls etc on the stick before the actual models spinner.

 

[Milosh]

Hartmann was posted on 21 August 1942 to Ergänzungs-Jagdgruppe Ost (1.42 - 9.42 at Krakau) and used the Bf 109E/F/G.

Its main purpose was to provide specialized training for new fighter pilots destined for the Eastern Front. Training was provided by experienced Eastern Front veterans, who were rotated in and out of this unit.

 

[silence]

No problem Steve.
And by the time birds spotted the whirling spiral in current jet intakes, they'd be sucked through the engine and blown out the back in toasted bits!

which are then sold to McDonald's to make Chicken Nuggets.

 

[silence]

I recon that trying to paint these spinners in a model situation would be challenging

Very true. If I want to paint one I use a pre-cut mask, but most kits provide decals if its appropriate.

 

[stona]

I recon that trying to paint these spinners in a model situation would be challenging

I've done it by painting the spiral colour first then masking with tape, but a pre-cut mask would be more likely to work first time! Spray the base colour of the spinner before un-masking. It's worth remembering that many of the spirals were far from perfectly applied originally.

I've got quite a few spiral decals accumulated over the years and these can usually be forced to conform with plenty on Microsol and effing and blinding

Cheers

Steve