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Spring 1944. Savio River bridges in Italy.
P-47. No flak. 50% hit within 180 feet of target. 30 bombs required for 1 hit.
P-47. Medium flak. 50% within 300 feet. 84 bombs required for 1 hit.
P-47. Heavy flak. 50% within 420 feet. 164 bombs required for 1 hit.
Sending an entire P-47 Fighter-Bomber Group to score a single bomb hit on a bridge or other such target is crazy. Why didn't we provide them with a proper bomb sight so they could put the P-47s heavy bomb load (sometimes 2 x 1,000 lb) on target?
I don't think its too difficult to build a toss bombing sight.
Spring 1944. Savio River bridges in Italy.
P-47. No flak. 50% hit within 180 feet of target. 30 bombs required for 1 hit.
P-47. Medium flak. 50% within 300 feet. 84 bombs required for 1 hit.
P-47. Heavy flak. 50% within 420 feet. 164 bombs required for 1 hit.
Sending an entire P-47 Fighter-Bomber Group to score a single bomb hit on a bridge or other such target is crazy. Why didn't we provide them with a proper bomb sight so they could put the P-47s heavy bomb load (sometimes 2 x 1,000 lb) on target?
Thats intersting. Thought it might be worthwhile to compare with the hits scored by the LW against the illustrious 10 jan '41. At the time of the first strike against her, Illustrious was steaming at about 25 knots, but in a relatively straight line, because she was launching and receiving aircraft (this did cease as the attack developed. There were no defending fighters and flak I would described as light to moderate. The target was about 700 feet long by 50 feet wide (roughly) The first attack was by torpedo bombers on the Battle Fleet, in which torpedoes missed after avoiding action had been taken. The second, which occurred at about 1235, was carried out by 25 or more Ju 87 and about 17 ju 88 dive-bombers which attacked with great determination and skill, by elements of Geislers naval attack corps.
Thats intersting. Thought it might be worthwhile to compare with the hits scored by the LW against the illustrious 10 jan '41.
This date preceded the introduction of the Stuvi 5b with BZA computer that that made it possible to dive bomb accuratly at shallow angles (eg 30 degrees or less), many Ju 88s apparently had their dive brakes removed which must had added to their speed. It also likely precedes the Lotfe 7 level bombing sight. I think early 1942 was the introduction date for both bombsights.
Ju 88's would mostly be releasing their bombs simultaneously or in short stings. Hitting a moving target can be difficult, it requires special training which the Ju 87 pilots had to develop but only some had.
Regardless of whether the LW a/c had bomsights fitted or not, or had older style bomsights, with the exception of PQ17 I cannot think of a more accurate attack made on the RN during the war.
The didn't always drop bombs on maritime targets. He-111s and Ju-88s sometimes carried torpedoes for naval attack. They also employed skip bombing from an altitude of 45 meters, most famously at Bari, Italy during late 1943.
The Germans didn't have good air dropped torpedoes, this is one area in which the Italians were the world leaders, so the Germans resorted to using Italian torpedoes.
The didn't always drop bombs on maritime targets. He-111s and Ju-88s sometimes carried torpedoes for naval attack. They also employed skip bombing from an altitude of 45 meters, most famously at Bari, Italy during late 1943.
Erik Wilkenson developed the m/42 bombsight for saab b17 1942 that alloved to do tossbombing on the target whit great accurate. in 1952 the USA where impressed by the late developed BT-9 and bougt some Bt-9D for there attackplanes. does anyone know whitc plane where equippment whit that device?
Here's a link of swedish sights. sorry but they are in swedish so plz ask me if you have question if there something in there you whanna know about.
Innehll i avsnittet Bevpning
The Luftwaffe returned after refueling rearming in Sicily to give the final blow. The fleet went to Illustrious' aid put up a heavy barrage. Fulmars from Illustrious fought to save the ship retired to Malta to refuel rearm to again return to the fight shoot down at least 5 Stukas. She was still 40 miles from Malta."
It seems the Illustrious was rather heavily defended and quite mobile during the second attack in which she was heavily defended by the AAA of other ships. The presence of so much AAA and fighters would have spoiled the aim of the bombers. Ju 88's were not capable of the vertical dive of a Ju 87 and at the time lacked the computing bombsight so much less accurate with only standard sights. The Luftwaffe had to learn to attack moving ships, it had trouble at Dunkique.
"HACS" the "High Angle Control System" had limitations as a AAA director but it was repeatedly modified so that around 1940 (from wiki)
Tachometric and radar additions:
"The RN moved quickly to add true tachometric target motion prediction and radar ranging to the HACS by mid 1941. The RN was the first navy to adopt dedicated FC AA radars. However the system, in common with all WW2 era mechanical AA fire control system still had severe limitations as even the highly advanced USN Mk 37 system in 1944 needed an average of 1,000 rounds of 5-inch ammunition fired per kill.[22] In 1940 the Gyro Rate Unit (GRU) was added to the HACS system, an analogue computer capable of directly calculating target speed and direction,[23] converting the HACS into a tachymetric system.[24][25] Also in 1940, radar ranging was added to the HACS.[26] The GRU and its associated computer, the Gyro Rate Unit Box (GRUB) no longer assumed straight and level flying on the part of the target. GRU/GRUB could generate target speed and position data at angular rates of up to 6 degrees per second, which was sufficient to track a 360 knot crossing target at a range of 2000 yards"
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Ah agreed, however FKX flyers had been trained to ignore the effects of flak, had developed tactics that maximised their benefit against the known British weaknesses in their AA FC. FKX had been fighting the RN since April 1940, and knew their jobs.
Rememeber, the object of this little sub-debate is how the LW compared in terms of accuracy to aircraft not fitted with bombsights. I am saying they didnt make much difference to the accuracy issue.
Wiki is a source you need to be careful with, though in this case the information concerning technical specs seems okay to me.
The installation of Gyro Rate Unit Boxes, supposedly in 41, would have improved HACS which previous to this required speed to be estimated and assumed constant height.
Ju 87 were very accurate dive bombers due to the vertical cabillity, Ju 88 were fairly accurate as dive bombers even due to the 45-60 degree capabillity with what amounts to little more than a gun sight with grid markings. However they were receiving AAA from the Illustrious, Nearby escorts and Fairy Fulmar fighters (where were the Bf 109s?) and the carrier was moving, she had steam going to her screws (enough for rudimentary stearing). Had the Ju 88's had the Stuvi 5B with BZA computer its likely they would have been more accurate. Even the Ju 87 was more accurate with this sight.
To put it even more bluntly, she was a moving target, moving slowly, in a slow predictable path, and a target much bigger than a bridge, in near perfect conditions (we do not know the conditions of the P-47 attack). The Ju88s were not the bulk of the attackers, incidentally, more than half the attackers were Ju87s in fact. The AA crews were professional, but the equipment they were using not so good.To put it bluntly, Illustrious was a moving target protected by professional AAA from several ships and escorts. Much harder than hitting a bridge. The Ju 88's, which were the bulk of the attackers had not been equiped with computing bombsights.
Westermannn does NOT make that comparison or at least, he does not make that comparison on its own or in isolation. he compares overall, he compares specific weapons, he makes the point that in 1941 and 42 the Germans were using fully trained professional flak crews and that their weapons were the best in the world at that time. I dont know if you have even read Wstermann, but he most certainly does NOT say what you are claiming.Comparing AAA with FLAK rounds to kill given a false impression. The data from Westerman is for a period when Allied jamming had just had a victory and the Germans had not yet had time to counter. It compares older weaker FLAK 8.8cm 18/36/37 guns from 'dads army reserve units' with second rate directors rather than the larger more powerfull 10.5 and 12.8cm guns which achieved 3000 shots to a kill in the same period. The US and UK guns were larger and more pwerfull than the basic 8.8cm (not FLAK 41).
The US by 1943 was widely using proximity fuses at sea by then.