Bomber offensive vs. Gemany: you are in charge

[wuzak]

IMO of course.

Me-410 Light Bomber.
View attachment 194711
- Small crew size (2 men) who are well protected against light flak.
- Generous size fuel tanks (2,420 liters) provide plenty of range.
- Relatively high cruise speed with payload to shorten time over the most dangerous regions.
- 1,000 kg bomb load which is accurate enough to hit a factory size building.
.....In practical terms this would be a modified Mosquito. If RAF specifications require these capabilities then that's how the British light bomber would be designed. Adding dive brakes, a dive bomber sight and additional armor to the historical Mosquito light bomber should work. And build it out of the aluminum historically used to make heavy bombers.




Fw-187 long range escort fighter.
View attachment 194721
- Plenty of internal fuel (1,100 liters increasing to 1,300 liters for the Fw-187D).
- Excellent aerial performance.
- Plenty of firepower.
What more could a fighter pilot ask for?

Britain has a couple options here.
1. Mustang airframe with Merlin engine.
2. Write Westland Whirlwind specifications so it resembles the Fw-187. Specifically it needs more internal fuel and should be powered by Merlin engines.
.....Critical altitude for the engine(s) would be about 15,000 feet as that's where the bombers will start before diving into the Ruhr Valley.

Make no mistake about it, RAF Bomber Command will still lose plenty of aircraft to both flak and German fighter aircraft. But those losses won't be in vain if Ruhr Valley factories are turned into rubble heaps.

The Mosquito was the answer....and was available from 1942. It could have been available as a bomber ingreater numbers had it not been needed for other duties (PR, NF, FB).

For Mosquitos the answer wasn't dive bombing, but low altitude attacks. I'd suggest that as early as possible a Mosquito LB IX with Merlin 66 (low altitude 2 stage engines) should be made. When higher octane fuels became available the M66 was capable of 2000hp at low altitude.

The Mosquito was difficult for the Luftwaffe to intercept in the 1942/43 timeframe. Add the extra power of the Merlin 66 and it becomes even harder.

Since the production of Lancasters is reduced, Packards can make more 60-series engines for Spitfires, Mustangs and Mosquitos.

On the idea of long range escorts, the Mustang arrived later than the B.IX/PR.IX Mosquito. Mustangs couldn't close escort Mossies anyway - it would compromise the range of both aircraft (one going slower than desired, the other going faster). Better to give them some freedom, and send them ahead of the bombers.

I don't think aluminium Mosquitos would necessarily be an improvement over the historical wooden ones. They would probably be heavier, and draggier. Better to use that to build another type of fast bomber - maybe a slightly larger one, with a larger bomb bay and more powerful engines.

 

[rochie]

i'm just glad the war started in 1941 as if it started any earlier, say 1939 or so then us inept brits would never have hung on long enough for every one else to come to the rescue !

 

[michaelmaltby]

We all know from recent history that democracies can't win unpopular wars - Viet Nam, Iraq2, .... that trend was already building during the Korean UN-Sponsored, US-led 'Police Action' .

I believe that the Night Raids by the UK-Commonwealth Air Force undoubtedly took a ghastly toll - the Butcher's Bill - but - these raids were POPULAR with the home audience in Britain - and in the contributing 'colonies' .... abroad. The planes went out - night after night - invisible but heard. And in the wee small hours they straggled home - engines smoking, controls shot out - bringing back their dead and wounded.

And then the Americans came - and more planes - visible now (Aluminum Overcast) - formed up and flew out - and the survivors came back On a Wing and a Prayer.

Bomber Harris took a stand on the Nazis and the Air War and he lead from that stand. Like it or not.

I don't think it was a pleasant job.

Thoughtfully,

MM

 

[stona]

The Mosquito was the answer....and was available from 1942.

Which may have been fine from 1942 had the war not started (for the British) three years earlier. The philosophy behind the procurement of four engined 'heavies' was already long established by 1942. Switching mid stream would have led to the sort of debacle that plagued the RLM/Luftwaffe.
It's interesting to see the promotion of a twin engined medium bomber for the RAF whilst the absence of a heavy strategic bomber in the Luftwaffe inventory is frequently bemoaned.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Bombing the Gussstahlfabrik from an altitude of 3,000 feet is a lot different from flying a Pathfinder Mosquito at 30,000 feet. The "Wooden Wonder" will be exposed to large quantities of radar directed 2cm and 3.7cm light flak. The crew need armor protection similiar to the Me-410 if they are to survive long enough to drop their bombs.

 

[pbfoot]

Harris did what he felt he needed to do and should be a hero.

While I reject the 'monster' tag for Harris, I don't think he qualifies as a hero either. He quite deliberately transformed the doctrine of area bombing into dogma, largely, I think, to justify his own messianic boast that area bombing would win the war on its own. It didn't. It couldn't.

I suggest Norris Cole might have been more effective then Bumbler Harris

!

Its also a fact that by 1918, under Haig, the British army was competent in integrated all-arms operations encompassing infantry, artillery, armour and air-power. Under Haig, the British army had the first and only Tank Corp. It had a machine gun corp. It was supported by the largest air force in the world. The artillery corps grew 50 fold. The engineer corps grews 200 fold.

This hardly the handy work of the almost cartoon stereotype bumbling cavalry idiot that most people seem to think Haig was.

Derail over.

Which armies under whose command using their stratagies delivered the knockout punches in 1918?

 

[pbfoot]

i'm just glad the war started in 1941 as if it started any earlier, say 1939 or so then us inept brits would never have hung on long enough for every one else to come to the rescue !

you had the channel as your friend and enough of the crap that Britain stood all alone

 

[stona]

you had the channel as your friend

But as previously explained it was the RAF not the Channel that kept Britain in the war. It is arguable that without that stretch of water Britain might have been forced to terms sooner,we'll never know.

Bizarrely this very evening I shall be boarding a train and passing under the Channel in a matter of minutes!

The Channel was certainly Germany's friend from say mid 1943 onwards.

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Bizarrely this very evening I shall be boarding a train and passing under the Channel in a matter of minutes!

Beware of military age French men passing in the opposite direction.

 

[Readie]

We all know from recent history that democracies can't win unpopular wars - Viet Nam, Iraq2, .... that trend was already building during the Korean UN-Sponsored, US-led 'Police Action' .
MM

An interesting point Michael. The UN could claim some victories like Yugoslavia whether these were 'wars' per se is another matter.

The British public's reaction to the Falklands was very telling.

John

 

[Readie]

Bizarrely this very evening I shall be boarding a train and passing under the Channel in a matter of minutes!
Cheers
Steve

Its a weird journey under such an historic piece of water in an engineering marvel.
I used to work at Coquelles and travel daily through the Chunnel. I have never lost my fascination for it.

John

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... Its a weird journey under such an historic piece of water in an engineering marvel."

Follow the chalk ...

MM

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... The British public's reaction to the Falklands was very telling."

How would you describe that reaction, John. We just hear about Rock Stars and Movie Stars reaction ...

Say more on this, please

MM

 

[Readie]

Something else Herman got wrong

John

 

[Readie]

"... The British public's reaction to the Falklands was very telling."

How would you describe that reaction, John. We just hear about Rock Stars and Movie Stars reaction ...

Say more on this, please

MM

Michael, I am the first to admit that the British can be a rather odd lot and there is a warlike gene in our make up. I am currently studying the history of England ( not Britain) to understand why the Romans, Danes and the bloody Normans have left us like with this legacy.
When Mrs Thatcher ( I must say that I cordially detest the woman) decided that 'we' were going to get the Falklands back from the Argies I was amazed at the general publics reaction. Bearing in mind that the country was as near to civil war as in Cromwellian times the disaffected youth wanted to lash out at someone or something. The Irish were playing up with bombs and the trade unions were in full war cry...I expect that you know all this.
I was living in North Kent at the time at a lot (if not all) the young men were demanding to sign up, go and fight, invade Argentina and anyone else who got in the way....their biggest fear was that the 'war' would be over before they had a chance to fight...

The media did an excellent job in whipping up the masses. So, the Falklands was a 'popular war', although the casualties caused an intake of breath among the calmer citizens.

Thatcher won another term on the back of this and seemed to think that she had the peoples mandate to continue her policies. I could say more but the no politics thing on this forum prevent this.

So, is the current war on terror popular? it is. Would it take another London bus bombing etc to wind up the rest of the population? Yes, we are poised for an attack in the Olympic year.

I wonder if the bovine public do what the media tells them to do...we are assaulted 24/7 on line, in the news, newspapers etc etc.

John

 

[Readie]

"... Its a weird journey under such an historic piece of water in an engineering marvel."

Follow the chalk ...

MM

I though the meeting of the British French tunnellers was an historic event and quite surprising given the French penchant for doing swerves at the last minute...

 

[Siegfried]

What about the Mosquito as a precision bombing aircraft for the RAF instead of the heavies?

Quite feasable, though it would need to be converted to metal (as some were) due to limmits in high quality timber supplies. This would allow a daylight offensive in many cases. While the Mosquitos would also eventually need escorts I feel their attrition would be vastly less than the slow 4 engined bombers that were so easy to intercept and spent so long in transit.

Two Mosquito, 4 crew could deliver about as much load as a Lancaster and they could likely do it in daylight with the enormous increase in accuracy that allowed. Some Mosquitos conducted 2 missions per night, merely changing over crews: a result of their high speed.

Lindemann however was determined to carpet bomb and helped engineer that outcome. It likely prevented development of alternatives.

 

[Milosh]

Quite feasable, though it would need to be converted to metal (as some were) due to limmits in high quality timber supplies. This would allow a daylight offensive in many cases. While the Mosquitos would also eventually need escorts I feel their attrition would be vastly less than the slow 4 engined bombers that were so easy to intercept and spent so long in transit.

Two Mosquito, 4 crew could deliver about as much load as a Lancaster and they could likely do it in daylight with the enormous increase in accuracy that allowed.

Lindemann however was determined to carpet bomb and helped engineer that outcome. It likely prevented development of alternatives.

First time I heard of any Mossies converted to metal. Details please.

A metal Mossie would be heavier than a wood one.

 

[wuzak]

Bombing the Gussstahlfabrik from an altitude of 3,000 feet is a lot different from flying a Pathfinder Mosquito at 30,000 feet. The "Wooden Wonder" will be exposed to large quantities of radar directed 2cm and 3.7cm light flak. The crew need armor protection similiar to the Me-410 if they are to survive long enough to drop their bombs.
View attachment 194773

Why would they bomb from 3000ft?

When Mosquitos bombed from low level they bombed quite a bit lower than 3000ft - sometimes as low as 50ft.

Mosquito B.IVs often bombed from low level during daylight before being shifted to PFF duties. The loss rates were often high (17%) but that was not a great statistic since usually there were only small numbers sent on raids (like 6, 1 loss in 6 = 17%).

I would think that radar directed flak would struggle at lower levels to track the target when it was moving at high speed.

The real threat for Mosquitos on low level raids was s/e fighters. In 1942/43, at least, the Mossies were fast enough that they could run away until the fighters lost interest/ran out of fuel.

From Wiki:

March 2/3, 1943

Krupp

6 RAF Mosquitos to the Ruhr without loss. The aircraft which bombed Essen scored direct hits in the middle of the main Krupp factory.

No mention as to whether this was a low level or high level raid, however. Nor if it was day or night, but 6 Mossies alone in early 1943 would suggest daylight bombing to me.

Bombing of Essen in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[wuzak]

Which may have been fine from 1942 had the war not started (for the British) three years earlier. The philosophy behind the procurement of four engined 'heavies' was already long established by 1942. Switching mid stream would have led to the sort of debacle that plagued the RLM/Luftwaffe.
It's interesting to see the promotion of a twin engined medium bomber for the RAF whilst the absence of a heavy strategic bomber in the Luftwaffe inventory is frequently bemoaned.
Cheers
Steve

Of this I am aware.

Prior to 1942 I would see the RAF conducting the war as it historically did - with Wellingtons, Blenheims, Hampdens, Whitleys, etc. There would only be a small period where the Halifax, Lancaster and Stirling would be in use as the primary strategic bombers, thereafter the performance of the Mosquito would make a change in policy. After all, the Lancaster and Mosquito bombers became operational within a month or two of each other.

It would take time to change production orders. I would suggest that Halifaxes and Lancasters could be converted for use by Coastal Command, some retained by Bomber Command for heavy lifting duties. Dump the Stirling. We just need an alternative metal aircraft to fill the factories.

The difference between the twin engined Mosquito and the Luftwaffe mediums was speed. The Luftwaffe mediums could carry about as much as a B-17 typically carried, at about the same speed, but with much less defensive armament.