Bomber offensive vs. Gemany: you are in charge

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Thanks, Glider John. IIRC there was a space for a 95 imp gal between pilot engine, but the pre-war specification was being fulfilled with 85 gals, so they went for the lower tankage?

John, if you just scroll down the bottom of the spitperformance page you've posted, there is a link for a cross section of the Spit with rear hull tanks, Shortround6 brought it to (not only) mine attention some time ago.
 
but it was not until the fall of 1943 that the front line squadrons of Fighter Command could finally say good-bye to the Spitfire V.

a few Squadron used V also in early '44 just thinking 611th, 64th that were based also a Coltishall and i think this is frontline
 
I believe trying to modify the Spit for escort duties is beyond the realm of reality , if it could`ve been done it would have. I go back to the point is what could BC do better and that is precision daylight raids . Could you invision working in concert with the USAAF whereby you just swamp the defences let the USAAF do the long work with their proper escorts and let BC stick closer to home hitting those targets with escorts they are capable of without silly losses . I don`t believe anyone can say that if you wanted a precision raid it would not be the USAAF. This is not say the USAAF was worse but that Bomber command and 2TAF thought more outside the box . An example in my mind would let the 8th take off and start their mission followed closely by a BC mission using the same general routing but a target closer to home as to utilise the Spit Escorts . The LW would be presented with a problem which mission to concentrate on and force division of their forces in a more piecemeal fashion. Can one imagine 3000 heavy and medium bombers and the same number of escorts swarming the airspace .
 
I do like the idea of multi thousand bomber raid

I believe trying to modify the Spit for escort duties is beyond the realm of reality , if it could`ve been done it would have.

Why do you think so?
 
I believe trying to modify the Spit for escort duties is beyond the realm of reality , if it could`ve been done it would have.

The Spitfire was used for escort duties, just not all the way to Berlin or deepest Germany.
As the war got nearer Germany the Spitfire had a more obvious role.

John
 
Well guys if you must insist on making the Spit for long range escort I believe it might be better to wait until they could lash a PT6A-68C in the nose change the skinning to carbon graphite etc. It just wasn`t the aircraft that it was going to occur to . I`d like be like Brad Pitt but it ain`t gonna happen
 
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I'd like too, but lack the hair

Back to the Spit, there was a simple expedient to attach two rear tanks (as told earlier in the thread), boosting fuel quantity by either 66 or 75 imp gals (62 or 72 actually usable). That makes 147-182 gals, all internal, for 1943 Spits (depending whether the leading edge tanks are installed); 1944 Mustangs had 215 imp gals, 149 gals in 1943. The dropable tank was good for further 90 gals. All of that gives the combat range of 370-400 miles (P-51 was capable of combat range of 375 miles with 215 imp gals, all internal) .
Unfortunately, it was not until Sept 1944 that orders were issued for such tanks (check out the data kindly provided by Glider, in previous page). So the capability of the plane was there, it just dawned too late to the people making decisions.
 
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With all these people with supposedly playing as allies using teamwork , not the guys seeing who got the most or best press,. Could you just imagine an Allied Bodenplatte late 43 early 44 ,
Amother scenario would be hammer German radar which should be possible (RAF acknowlegdedit existence in 41) ,its not like they were mobile ...followed by a Bodenplatte . Lets see all these Mossies and B26's take out the radar and then followup with the pasting of any chosen target or set of targets in the Reich .
 
Good idea about attacking the radars. Not just that a wrecked radar net gives a hard time for defenders to scramble, it also hampers the Flak units. Any radar that is on-line is something akin to a flashlight in the moonless night if the attacker is properly equipped, and RAF other interested in the UK certainly were by 1942 on.
 
Hello Glider
thanks for the photos on docus! I can see that the second is from AIR 19/286, would you be so kind and give the date of that minute and the archival signum of the folder from which the first docu is and its heading.

TIA
Juha
 
... Really, an Me 109G with a 66 gallon drop tank could ferry about the same distance, a result of fuel efficiency in the DB605 I believe.

I still wonder why Germans didn't use that claimed ferry range, at least not often. In all 109 pilot memoirs I can recall, when they ferrier 109s to the east they did it by rather short stages. Same to Finns when they ferried 109s to Finland. And when 11./JG 2 with its 109G-1s were transferred from Normandy to Tunisia via Sicily in early Nov 42, it didn't flew to Southern France and then across the Med to Sicily, not even via Sardinia to Sicily. No, it first went to Mannheim and even that was impossible without a refilling stop at Rheims. From Mannheim to München, then to Treviso-Jesi-Bari-Reggio di Calabria-Trapani-Comiso-Pantelleria. It departed on 4 Nov 42 and arrived to Sicily on 8 Nov. To me that didn't show specially good ferry range.

... The 5 hour endurance of the Spitfire is also almost totally useless in combat situation. It was a supermarine publicity stunt by Mutt Sommers.

Now Mk VIIs flew a few long range escort missions in ETO, the longest I'm aware took 3h 50min and Mk VIIIs flew long range escort missions in Pacific, the longest I'm aware was 4h 30min long, so it had some practical use.

Juha
 
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I'm not aware of any such attacks on LW radar , the Allies must have been aware of the value of such targets so why were they neglected .
 
Never said the major-scale were conducted, not even the minor-scale ones. Just agreed that I like th idea.
As for why allies did not bothered to destroy the radars supporting infrastructure, well, the whole target policy deserves it's own thread, if not the site about that.
 

Way back in this thread I made the point that low penetration light,specialised raids like Amiens and Copenhagen are utterly irrelevant to the conduct of a bombing campaign designrd to destroy and dislocate an enemies production capability.
As for the dams raid,delivering a few mines to destroy two dams for a minimum return at an enormous cost was,sadly, a propaganda victory and nothing more.That's why the photo reconnaissance photos of one of the destroyed dams (Mohne?) appeared in the British press so rapidly. No air force could sustain that level of loss on regular operations.
Bennet of pathfinder fame should be an Australian well known to anybody interested in the bombing campaign and he was not the only prominent Australian airman.
Cheers
Steve
 
Mr Bennett deserves far more credit for his pioneering of Ferry Command , as for losses was the Battle of Belin sustainable no not by a long shot nor were the results worth it . Why not go after the snakes head of the LW attack where they are , if you seriously bombed the snot out of the airfields you would at least impare the ability to fly the aircraft simply by knocking off the skilled trades that kept them airborne rather then fake victories like the Battle of Berlin. IIRC no Aussies other then Bennett were in charge of either Wings or Groups
 
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I'm not aware of any such attacks on LW radar , the Allies must have been aware of the value of such targets so why were they neglected .

From the Australian archives:

 
And from the official history of the RAF:


The RAF also introduced a radar receiver fitted to Typhoon aircraft to enable them to locate enemy radar stations. The programme was called "Abdullah" but it doesn't seem to have been a great success, probably because of the technical limitations.

The preferred way of dealing with enemy radar seems to have been jamming. That's probably because radar stations were small targets, very numerous, and fairly easy to replace.
 
Ok so they attacked it for D Day prep why not earlier , say 43 and keep on hitting them , if they spent one day a month attacking all the radars , could the Germanns keep up repairs particulaly if while the radar was degraded they attacked POL and Transport
 
Thanks for the contribution, Hop.
I guess jamming involves far less risk, but on the other hand the destroyed radar site cannot be replaced/rebuilt so easily. As said in the excerpt:


IIRC Germans themselves were in dire straits as far as electronic production was case, for second half of war, maybe someone could shed some light on that? Even the copper was in short supply?

To continue, with radar sites (those in N. France and Low countries) properly 'visited' in early 1943, both by RAF and USAAF, would've made LW defenders, both Flak, day and night fighters far less of a threat for the 'invaders'.
 
It seems that the heavies with their "precision capability" could and did knock down radars . I can invision visiting all the radar sites known in a one day Bodenplatte
to me its seems a natural thing to do kind of like using a capapult in days gone by to breech castle walls . There is no way that the LW could counter all the raids
 

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