lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I believe school was closed for a couple snow days when this happened..
Boy Directs JFK Air Traffic
- Thread starter Njaco
- Start date
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Though why was the boy allowed in the tower? Crap, there are planes circling around a busy airport and one little mistake could possibly seal the fate of one pilot and the passengers. Security these days....
Pong, apparently you have never been in a busy active control tower or any control tower for that matter. At a place like JFK there are several controllers in the tower moving aircraft on the ground, giving clearances and even moving ground vehicles. These kids were under the direct supervision of the controller and were prompted on what to say and when to say it, it wasn't like these kids were directing traffic flow or giving any type of sequence. I would also guess that this controller brought these kids to the tower at a time where things weren't that busy, and had things been busy, these kids would not have done this. All these kids did were to repeat a couple of prompted commands to aircraft awaiting a simple instruction. I would relate this to a captain of an ocean liner allowing a child to come in the bridge and toot the ship's horn while arriving in port. Where the laps of judgement is here is doing this in airspace that is continually being monitored and scrutinized by the media and public. Had this been at a small airport, this would have been a non event.
Folks need to understand the environment that this incident happened in before making comments.
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r2800doublewasp
Senior Airman
A couple years back I visited an air traffic control tower at SFO because my friends dad is an air traffic controller. It was pretty cool but VERY busy.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
My dad used to work in Base Ops and I loved going to work with thim.
Cripes, if the guy left the kid incharge and went out to smoke I can understand the concern, but this......Ijust don't get what the problem was.
Cripes, if the guy left the kid incharge and went out to smoke I can understand the concern, but this......Ijust don't get what the problem was.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
International efforts to reduce runway incursions and other ground-ground incidents are at the leading edge of world safety objectives. Surely the FAA is VERY concerned when "qualified" controllers are implicating that a child can conduct their jobs.
I'm 100% behind them getting canned. While some may pretend that ground operations are harmless with respect to safety, setting such a precendent is ridiculous.
Tape Confirms The Pilot's Son Caused Crash Of Russian Jet - NYTimes.com
I'm 100% behind them getting canned. While some may pretend that ground operations are harmless with respect to safety, setting such a precendent is ridiculous.
Tape Confirms The Pilot's Son Caused Crash Of Russian Jet - NYTimes.com
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Matt - it's one thing to prompt a kid to say "Clear for Takeoff." It's another thing when you let a kid manipulate the controls of an airliner with 100+ people on board, at altitude and at cruising speeds.
The guy should be reprimanded and moved to Republic airport.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
We aren't even hearing the complete sequence of transmissions , I can't recall anyone clearing the aircraft on to the active rwy or altimeter setting or winds neither do you hear anyone clearing any aircraft to land
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Sorry guys I take this much more seriously than you do. It is not only what the kid(s) said, but the fact that they required some supervision that impairs the controllers ability to concentrate on maintaining a safe ground operation. With the international effort to reduce ground incidents/accidents at a peak, the controller (and his supervisor) have committed a cardinal sin. Especially with this being JFK. Unexcusable. Let him join the 10%.
But, alas, he's NATCA. Not a d@mn thing will happen to him.
But, alas, he's NATCA. Not a d@mn thing will happen to him.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I heard the part of the tape and its a non event and this had nothing to do with ground collision avoidance. The tape I heard had the adult give taxi instruction to several aircraft and when the first aircraft was cleared for take off, the kid chimed in and it was obvious he was prompted by the controller. This was well into the evening from what I understand and flights were not pouring out of JFK like some would believe. The stupidity here was doing this at Kennedy. I bet you LAX and O'Hare are continually monitored now by the public (thanks to the wonder of the Internet) to see if this or any other errors are going to be made.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the FAA had no policy or guidelines to address a situation like this. Additionally the FCC would allow a non-licensed person to transmit on a VHF frequency under the direct supervision of a licensed individual.
As I heard one person comment about this - "Instructions conveyed and properly followed." Give the controller a slap on the hand and press on. This is nothing more than media sensationalism against the aviation industry.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the FAA had no policy or guidelines to address a situation like this. Additionally the FCC would allow a non-licensed person to transmit on a VHF frequency under the direct supervision of a licensed individual.
As I heard one person comment about this - "Instructions conveyed and properly followed." Give the controller a slap on the hand and press on. This is nothing more than media sensationalism against the aviation industry.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Its obvious that it will turn out badly for the controller and his supervisor but then again everyone in the Tower that was on shift at the same time should fired as well if they let this horrible transgression occur . BTW who the hell listens to ATC on line , I've tried but and I've a practiced ear it lacks all the interraction between all the agencies so you really don't have a clue as to whats occuring .
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
There are many who will "ease-drop" on these transmissions and try to interpret them their own way.
About 2 years ago I was doing routine touch and goes at my local airport. On my 3rd circuit I rotated and the airplane stopped making power, RPM hung at 1700 RPM and I was 500' AGL and no longer climbing. I was able to turn around and was going to go back to the runway, the whole time telling the tower what was going on. As I prepared for an emergency landing I went quickly through an emergency checklist and pulled carburetor heat. Immediately the engine came back to life - I had picked up some carb ice. I stopped the tower from rolling out the emergency vehicles and continued on my way. Later that week I was at an aviation gathering and a friend of a friend heard about my little situation and played back the tape via Internet. I was surprised that this was able to be accessed
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Anything recorded is accessable via the Freedom of Information Act. And ICAO Annex 6 requires that member states (nations) retain ground recordings of all ATC communications. With the 'internets' and aviation enthusiasts with VHF receivers, it's all right there for some website entrepeneur.
I kinda like the site. Makes for a interesting diversion.
I kinda like the site. Makes for a interesting diversion.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Its hard to follow since it lacks the interaction between the various units ,. ACC ,Terminal , Ground ,Tower its kinda like reading about using even pages only . the reasoning behind the decisions is not there
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Yeah but that's a nit. You don't get the D-side and R-side controller dialogue either.
Pong
Staff Sergeant
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
After I got on the ground it did!Pucker factor go up there a tad?
I hear ya'. Only a catastophic failure would be worse than the engine going south.
<THREAD DRIFT ALERT> (the following is not worth it's own thread but is interesting)
On a related note, there were two gear collapses on my airfield over the last week. Weather has been brutal, crosswinds galore. Add that to piled snow on the sides of the runway and you get guys catching the plowed snow, digging the gear in and collapsing the nose gear as the nose comes around and into the snow.
One was a Piper 160 or so. Bad, but not real pricey. The other was a Piper Malibiu. Pricey, and the props were fractured on both.
Weirded me out when I saw them. Was very careful on landing.
<Back to our normally scheduled thread>
Wonder if the feds are going to come down hard on the ATCs. It's pretty well known now so they'll probably make an example.
