Brewster Buffalo - what is the verdict?

[Admiral Beez]

P-66 Vanguards In USAAF service were taken off/written off 1942-43 according to Joe Baugher lists. Apparently not sent on to mechanic training.

Did Sweden receive any of its P-66 aircraft ordered? I wonder how it compared to the FFVS J 22.

 

[Shortround6]

We should not
Grumman was counting to about 280-290 mph at S/L with the 'Juniors', and 311-312 with the R-1820s.

Thank you,
So no guns and under 90 US gallons of fuel per engine.
Somehow the 4000fpm climb turns into 4.2 minutes to 10,000ft?

Not that hard to see why the Navy wasn't jumping all over it

 

[GTX]

Did Sweden receive any of its P-66 aircraft ordered? I wonder how it compared to the FFVS J 22.

I don't believe they received any

 

[Shortround6]

P-66 was armed with two .50s in cowl and four .30s in the wings. Pretty much the same as a P-40C. Ammo capacity may be different.
None of the 144 built are recorded as making to Sweden.
This thing didn't climb any better than most P-40s, was slower than the P-40s and may not have had any protection?
At about 7000lbs and an under 200sq ft wing it was not going to turn anywhere close to the Japanese fighters.

 

[Wildcat]

P-66 was armed with two .50s in cowl and four .30s in the wings. Pretty much the same as a P-40C. Ammo capacity may be different.
None of the 144 built are recorded as making to Sweden.
This thing didn't climb any better than most P-40s, was slower than the P-40s and may not have had any protection?
At about 7000lbs and an under 200sq ft wing it was not going to turn anywhere close to the Japanese fighters.

But it looked cool!

 

[SaparotRob]

It probably would, but you are getting into P-38 land, One F5F costing about double what an F2A-2 would cost or the Curtiss "Demon".

I am not sure the XF5F-1 ever reached it's estimated numbers despite a number of modifications.
View attachment 867270
We are supposed to believe that this could do 383mph at sea level while A P-38G with 1325hp good for just over 340mph?

The Black Hawks liked them.

 

[Shortround6]

Thanks to MiTasol and his posting of operating manuals for the P-66 we know that the P-66s did have self-sealing tanks and BP glass and some armor.
Dive speed was 425mph ASI. Ammo was 225rpg for the .50s and 500rpg for the .30s.
Climb was not good and they were using 2700rpm for emergency power for 5 minutes (not calling it Military power yet).

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

I've painstakingly gone over all the officially credited Buffalo victories, damages and archivally confirmed victories that I could find. If a kill has the kill's unit listed, it means it's been confirmed from that country's archive as genuine. A lack of archival confirmation does not necessarily mean a kill isn't genuine, but there is a lot of air in these claims, as was the norm in aerial victory claims in both world wars.

Sourced additions are welcome. See the tab in the bottom-left corner to cycle through the different models of the aircraft. You can also have a better look by opening the link directly. Enjoy.


View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_tG5uHQkLmfAPIBZJ1r0_UHUlZW-7IVqD3qWsMrhsHQ/edit?usp=sharing

 

[bf109xxl]

Sourced additions are welcome. See the tab in the bottom-left corner to cycle through the different models of the aircraft. You can also have a better look by opening the link directly. Enjoy.

IMHO, the most reliable source on Soviet losses during the air raids on Finland on June 25, 1941, is an article by Mikhail Timin (arguably the most authoritative Russian-language author on this topic, despite my categorical disagreement with his political views). I think it's worth taking these figures into account—they're based on Soviet archival data.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

an article by Mikhail Timin

Is it in contradiction with the table?

 

[bf109xxl]

Is it in contradiction with the table?

There is a difference. According to Soviet data, 6 SBs from the 201st SBAP were shot down (including 2 or 3 aircraft from the 2nd SBAP, which had been transferred to the 201st SBAP in the spring), 1 SB from the 202nd SBAP, and 2 SBs from the 2nd SBAP.

 

[Dimlee]

I've painstakingly gone over all the officially credited Buffalo victories, damages and archivally confirmed victories that I could find. If a kill has the kill's unit listed, it means it's been confirmed from that country's archive as genuine. A lack of archival confirmation does not necessarily mean a kill isn't genuine, but there is a lot of air in these claims, as was the norm in aerial victory claims in both world wars.

Sourced additions are welcome. See the tab in the bottom-left corner to cycle through the different models of the aircraft. You can also have a better look by opening the link directly. Enjoy.


View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_tG5uHQkLmfAPIBZJ1r0_UHUlZW-7IVqD3qWsMrhsHQ/edit?usp=sharing

Great work, thank you.

 

[buffnut453]

I've painstakingly gone over all the officially credited Buffalo victories, damages and archivally confirmed victories that I could find. If a kill has the kill's unit listed, it means it's been confirmed from that country's archive as genuine. A lack of archival confirmation does not necessarily mean a kill isn't genuine, but there is a lot of air in these claims, as was the norm in aerial victory claims in both world wars.

Sourced additions are welcome. See the tab in the bottom-left corner to cycle through the different models of the aircraft. You can also have a better look by opening the link directly. Enjoy.


View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_tG5uHQkLmfAPIBZJ1r0_UHUlZW-7IVqD3qWsMrhsHQ/edit?usp=sharing

The table is missing any claims by 67 Sqn RAF in Burma, 8 Dec 41 thru 15 Mar 42. Bloody Shambles may have details.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

There is a difference. According to Soviet data, 6 SBs from the 201st SBAP were shot down (including 2 or 3 aircraft from the 2nd SBAP, which had been transferred to the 201st SBAP in the spring), 1 SB from the 202nd SBAP, and 2 SBs from the 2nd SBAP.

Timin lists 2 SBs shot down from 2 SBAP, otherwise the table looks to be identical to what you wrote. I rechecked sources by Kalevi Keskinen, Kari Stenman, Carl-Fredrik Geust and Dimitryi Hazanov: all of them mention 3 SBs from 2 SBAP. However they give no further information on the identity of the aircraft or its crew, and the sources are quite old now as far as this kind of stuff is concerned, from the early-to-mid 2000s (i.e. much of the research was probably done in the '90s). I'll mark one of the verified SBs from 2 SBAP as a possible "false positive", thanks for the input. If there's information on a damaged SB that could have been thought to have been shot down, but actually made it back home, feel free to let me know. Another thought comes to mind as well: even if it made it back, was it written off after an assesment of the damage? This would constitute a kill.

The table is missing any claims by 67 Sqn RAF in Burma, 8 Dec 41 thru 15 Mar 42. Bloody Shambles may have details.

Thanks, I'll take a look.

 

[bf109xxl]

Timin lists 2 SBs shot down from 2 SBAP, otherwise the table looks to be identical to what you wrote. I rechecked sources by Kalevi Keskinen, Kari Stenman, Carl-Fredrik Geust and Dimitryi Hazanov: all of them mention 3 SBs from 2 SBAP. However they give no further information on the identity of the aircraft or its crew, and the sources are quite old now as far as this kind of stuff is concerned, from the early-to-mid 2000s (i.e. much of the research was probably done in the '90s).

2 shot down, 1 damaged - the names of the crew commanders are listed in the article by Timin. Still, I tend to consider Timin's data the most reliable at this point.

At around noon (Moscow time), in the Luumäki area, the Brewster pair of Kinnunen and Turkka managed to intercept a SB formation. The opponents of the Finnish pair in this engagement were three SBs led by Major F.F. Moskalenko, commander of the 2nd Squadron of the 2nd SBAP, who at 12:00, from an altitude of 2,000 meters, dropped 18 FAB-100s, 2 FAB-50s, and 2 ZAB-50s onto the same nonexistent "Luumäki" airfield, and attempted to retreat, but only the crew of Senior Lieutenant I.V. Krasnokutsky managed to do so. He reported on the circumstances of the air battle, including graphical diagrams.
...
As a result of this sortie, in an attempt to bomb a target that did not actually exist, the 2nd SBAP lost two experienced crews:
SB Ser.No. 18/220 (2M-103U Nos. 933-1039 and 933-98).
Commander of the 2nd Squadron, Major F.F.Moskalenko,
Squadron Navigator, Captain M.V.Gryaznev,
Gunner-Radio Operator, Senior Sergeant K.K.Kalpunov.

SB Ser.No. 6/140 (2M-103 Nos. 833-312 and 833-113).
Flight Leader: Lieutenant A.A.Kostin,
Flight Navigator: Lieutenant G.G.Krylov,
Gunner-Radio Operator: Junior Sergeant M.I.Pirogov.

Thanks, I'll take a look.

I'm always pleased to share information. And thank you for your tables!

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

The table is missing any claims by 67 Sqn RAF in Burma, 8 Dec 41 thru 15 Mar 42. Bloody Shambles may have details.

I've not been able to find any kind of list of these. I didn't do a thorough look, but it didn't seem like they're comprehensively detailed in the text of Bloody Shambles either.

 

[cammerjeff]

I think we are leaving out any victories made by the DEI Buffalo's and any made by the USMC at Midway, I know a couple of the USMC planes survived the battle, but I can't remember if they made any claims.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

I think we are leaving out any victories made by the DEI Buffalo's and any made by the USMC at Midway, I know a couple of the USMC planes survived the battle, but I can't remember if they made any claims.

They've been there since I posted the table. See tabs 339C & D and F2A-3.

 

[Greg Boeser]

I think we are leaving out any victories made by the DEI Buffalo's and any made by the USMC at Midway, I know a couple of the USMC planes survived the battle, but I can't remember if they made any claims.

Click on the appropriate tabs on the bottom of the chart.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Nice chart. I have seen the 10 Mar 42 Neefus kill listed as a H8K1.