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And the French souped-up 47mm tank gun still wasn't as good as the British 40mm.
Some of the proposed 6pdr/57mm tank guns aren't much better than the British 40mm and weigh more, need larger/heavier turret, and restrict ammo capacity.
Nobody says that the standard 6pdr was a bad gun. What was bad was the timing, that gotten worse due to the invasion panic. Bad timing is the greatest shortcoming a weapon can have (apart from some weapons having an 'intent' to kill the opeartor(s), like the Me 163).For some reason everybody thinks the standard British 6pdr was a bad gun. It was being designed in 1938, it was test fired in 1939. It should have gone into production in late 1940 or early 1941 and most British service tanks in 1942 should have had the 6pdr in late winter/early Spring of 1942, not just showing up in the late fall of 1942.
These were the QF weapons. I've suggested a true semi-auto gun.As far as the 2pdr goes. I may be being a bit of stickler here. The Standard 2pdr tank/AT gun was semi-auto. This may be a translation issue.
Cheapest, easiest solution for British tank guns was to use the 2pdr, Fit either 40mm Bofors shells or 2pdr Pom-Pom shells for HE, design and build APCBC ammo and issue it by the beginning of 1941.
On Matilda II, the powerplant was not very volume and weight efficient because of the twinned up engines and the transfer case to combine the outputs. I'm not sure if the Soviet figures are actually true, but you could actually fit the Churchill's Bedford engine in a smaller volume than the twinned up Matilda setup, and even the former is not all that efficient so there is even greater room to improve.Well the Matilda was kind of a special case. It was small (volume) for it's weight. It was a bit easier (not a lot easier) to transport than a larger tank of the same weight. Still needs the same bridging equipment. The Matilda only gained it's reputation because of it's armor for the most part. It carried a bit less ammo than the Cruiser tanks. You also need a bigger hull to fit in a bigger powerplant if you want a faster tank and the increased hull size is going to run up weight quick.
Considering that Covenanter and Crusader only existed to squeeze a Light and a Heavy Cruiser into a 18 ton weight limit, you could get away with indeed just improving the A13 Mk II somewhat while working on the 1938/39 A13/A15 within a 25 ton limit (or at least slightly in excess of 20 tonnes), ideally accounting for the incoming 6 pdr and a proper new engine.Keep the 2pdr, Keep the basic A 13. work on fixing the existing Liberty and not start dissipating design and development work on 3 different bespoke tank engines, while trying to sort out the modified Liberty.
For the A 13, add more armor, add 5 wheel if needed.
Get the Centaur/Cromwell into production sooner. Maybe by killing the Covenanter on the drawing board. And perhaps a few other projects.
Just get the tank guys and the gun guys to talk to each other sooner. A close to Comet with the 77mm in production at the end of 1943?
Put a sloped nose on it instead of the left over Cromwell nose.
Yes, at least once APC(BC) was introduced on 2pdr. (AlsoAnd the French souped-up 47mm tank gun still wasn't as good as the British 40mm.
It was definitely the best sub-75mm gun of WW2. Ironically, the British were the 2nd country after France to actually field heavily armored tanks (A11 and A12), with the USSR not far behind. If an underfunded British tank program could do this, then the British should have accounted for the enemy being able to field at least equally armored tanks, requiring appropriate ammunition for the 2 pdr and ideally a more powerful gun even if only as part of a 2-tier system (just like France with 25 and HV 47mm).For some reason everybody thinks the standard British 6pdr was a bad gun. It was being designed in 1938, it was test fired in 1939. It should have gone into production in late 1940 or early 1941 and most British service tanks in 1942 should have had the 6pdr in late winter/early Spring of 1942, not just showing up in the late fall of 1942.
Of note that the French 75mm tank guns with mle.97 ballistics (the aptly-named 75mm "Self-Propelled Type") were derived from the mle.1929 casemate gun with a new barrel and a new sliding breech. Automatic at that, eg the breech closed automatically when the round was rammed in by the spring-operated mechanized rammer to reduce the loader's work .Please note that the French 75 was NOT semi-automatic even though it was "quick firing" weapon. It depended on a gunner's hand to operated the handle to open and close the Breech. US/British tank cannon could fire French 75mm ammo but the tank guns had new breech blocks (they also had new barrels).
Some of the proposed 6pdr/57mm tank guns aren't much better than the British 40mm and weigh more, need larger/heavier turret, and restrict ammo capacity.
Great, ditch the medium velocity 6pdr. Keep the 2pdr,
Just get the tank guys and the gun guys to talk to each other sooner. A close to Comet with the 77mm in production at the end of 1943?
Granted this is a what if but the solution seems to be to take old, crappy 6pder guns and/or ammo ( or build new guns to old dimensions), design and build new HE shells, and then design/build new AP projectiles, some of which will be some sort of APCR shot (tungsten steel core?) to get around the fact that the old 6pdr guns/ammo aren't any better than the 2pdr gun using cheap solid one piece projectiles.
The 2pdr, and every other 37-57mm gun had a poor HE payload. But every other nation adopted and issued HE rounds. Poor does not mean useless. The French had literally thousand of tanks running around with the short 37mm guns that had 30g of HE in WW I and during the 1920s and early 30s. They adopted a Mle 1936 shell that held 56g and the longer barreled 37mm SA 38 gun used a shell with 60 grams.I'd expect that a MV 57mm gun would have about similar AP performance as the historical 2pdr. Which ought to be good enough for the first couple of years of the war. The upside would be having a much better HE shell. Maybe smoke too. Similar to the logic that led to the QF 75mm being preferred as a tank gun to the 6pdr.
The 17pdr was big gun, and it used big ammo and it had a lot recoil. The 77mm used the same projectiles. The 77mm had about 10% more penetration than the US 76mm tank gun and that is with standard projectiles.I'd argue for going straight away for a tank big enough to carry the full 17pdr, obviating the need for the 77mm HV gun altogether.
If you want APCR to work you have to make the multi piece ammo very carefully. More labor. Make it sloppy and it still will penetrate..............if it hits. Poor accuracy is going to hurt.I recall it has been discussed in this forum that the steel core APCR's got about equal penetration to classic APCBC shells. Just go with whatever is cheaper? APCR doesn't need any HE filling nor a fuse, OTOH it needs the aluminum(?) sleeve which might be in high demand by the aircraft industry? Or just go with a full-bore solid steel APC(BC) (use less powder for the HE shell to roughly match trajectories?)?
That is quite a wide brush, lumping the 37 and 57mm guns in the same basket wrt. the HE payload. A 57mm HE shell can indeed have 3-4 times the He filling - like 245g for the Soviet 57mm. The 57mm shell will be also flinging a much more lethal 'rain' of shrapnel, talk 2.5-3 heavier mass of steel. A light field cover, like a small tree or an immobilized truck or halftrack, will be less of an useful cover for the enemy infantry. A 57mm shell that landed in a room through a window will annihilat the enemy infantry there.The 2pdr, and every other 37-57mm gun had a poor HE payload.
These were the main reasoning I've suggested that the equivalent of the 77mm HV is made 1st, followed with a more powerful gun.The 17pdr was big gun, and it used big ammo and it had a lot recoil. The 77mm used the same projectiles. The 77mm had about 10% more penetration than the US 76mm tank gun and that is with standard projectiles.
We in 2025 know when the new tanks showed up. The 77mm British gun could penetrate about 20% more than the long 75mm gun in the German MK IV.
Unless you use a big turret for the 17pdr you have a slow rate of fire. With the Comet the British get good compromise. A fast, well armed tank.
The Centurion was a heck of a tank, but it had the speed of of Tiger I and short road range. It was a good defensive tank. British had swung to gun power but it did cost them.
If you want APCR to work you have to make the multi piece ammo very carefully. More labor. Make it sloppy and it still will penetrate..............if it hits. Poor accuracy is going to hurt.
The 17pdr was big gun, and it used big ammo and it had a lot recoil. The 77mm used the same projectiles. The 77mm had about 10% more penetration than the US 76mm tank gun and that is with standard projectiles.
We in 2025 know when the new tanks showed up. The 77mm British gun could penetrate about 20% more than the long 75mm gun in the German MK IV.
The British were late to the party with APCR shot. They seemed to do a good job with the 2pdr but since that was supposed to fired out of squeeze bore adaptor perhaps they took a bit more care? They didn't issue a lot of 6pdr APCR shot so reports are rare. They got the APDS into service soon after and that took over and by all accounts it worked well.Then start it out ASAP. There is no guarantee that the Gen 1 will be great, so use the lessons learned during the tests for the Gen 2.
I am in full agreement here. Having the gun makers and the tank makers talk to each other would have been a huge advantage.These were the main reasoning I've suggested that the equivalent of the 77mm HV is made 1st, followed with a more powerful gun.
Yes the 6pdr would be better for HE, but the 75mm guns could usually fire smoke, which the 6pdr never did.That is quite a wide brush, lumping the 37 and 57mm guns in the same basket wrt. the HE payload. A 57mm HE shell can indeed have 3-4 times the He filling - like 245g for the Soviet 57mm. The 57mm shell will be also flinging a much more lethal 'rain' of shrapnel, talk 2.5-3 heavier mass of steel. A light field cover, like a small tree or an immobilized truck or halftrack, will be less of an useful cover for the enemy infantry. A 57mm shell that landed in a room through a window will annihilat the enemy infantry there.
Similar is with the enemy tanks - a tank that is punctured by a small AP shot might still have both the tank and the crew being able to fight very soon, while a 57mm shot that penetrated will make a greater mess of the tank's internals, including the crew. Especially if the shot is of the APHE variety.
The British met the Tiger I in combat apparently in (very) late 1942 (and probably they had some information from spies beforehand that the Germans were going to introduce a new very heavy tank into service?). For a late war tank introduced, say, mid 1944 that's still one and a half year. And even if the specs have to be nailed down before late 1942, it doesn't take a genius to look at a plot of tank weight vs year of introduction and conclude that tanks are gonna get heavier, thus requiring ever heavier guns to punch through their armor.
FWIW, the 17pdr was quite close to the German 75 KwK 42 used on the Panther. Seems to have worked well enough there? In fact, the shell case is even slightly shorter for the 17pdr, 583 vs 640mm, though at least by a quick visual look the case looks fatter.
Turns out that many nations were not using critical thinking. They projected the larger tanks but only the Tiger II really appeared and it was not a big success. The Germans went for some very large AT guns. British were working on the 32pdr (3.7in AA gin barrel) Americans were working on at least one 105mm.
Trouble was that these big guns required a big truck/tractor to move (US towed 105mm weighed 16,000lbs) and on the other side, trying to move 75+ ton vehicles required a lot more work on engines and transmissions to make them practical.
The Panther worked. But it was near the limit for a 1944-45 tank. They made bigger tanks but the rates of fire/rate of engagement fell off. The big tanks were slow, they had mechanical problems and problems with terrain. Granted this is with hindsight.
If the British had gotten their act together (this is a what if) perhaps they could have gone ashore on DD day with 3-400 Comets and build another 100-200 a month. Granted they are not going to take out Tiger IIs from the front but the Germans didn't have that many Tiger IIs. The Comet was faster and bit lower than a Sherman.
FWIW the Cromwell was upgraded from QF75mm to 20 Pounder and one trialled successfully with the L7 105mm, as the Charioteer, serving in Austria, Finland and Lebanon (via Jordan) until the 1970s. The Finns had a plan to upgrade from 20 Pounder to L7 too but it did not come to pass. The Austrians used the turrets when the vehicles were retired and mounted them as bunkers.For a Centurion-sized tank, the full 17pdr makes sense. Heck the Centurion had enough space allowing it to be upgraded with the 20pdr and the 105mm later in its career.
The Tiger I first entered combat on the Eastern Front near Leningrad on 29th Aug 1942.The British met the Tiger I in combat apparently in (very) late 1942 (and probably they had some information from spies beforehand that the Germans were going to introduce a new very heavy tank into service?). For a late war tank introduced, say, mid 1944 that's still one and a half year. And even if the specs have to be nailed down before late 1942, it doesn't take a genius to look at a plot of tank weight vs year of introduction and conclude that tanks are gonna get heavier, thus requiring ever heavier guns to punch through their armor.
FWIW, the 17pdr was quite close to the German 75 KwK 42 used on the Panther. Seems to have worked well enough there? In fact, the shell case is even slightly shorter for the 17pdr, 583 vs 640mm, though at least by a quick visual look the case looks fatter.
And the sacrifice to cope with the extra weight of the 20pdr gun was that the new bulkier turret only had 20-30mm of armour and accommodated only 2 crew (with only a driver in the hull). And ammunition was limited to just 25 rounds. David Fletcher of the Tank Museum described it as the fifth worst British tank produced. Some have described It as a throwback to the WW2 tank destroyer concept.FWIW the Cromwell was upgraded from QF75mm to 20 Pounder and one trialled successfully with the L7 105mm, as the Charioteer, serving in Finland and Lebanon (via Jordan) until the 1970s. The Finns had a plan to upgrade from 20 Pounder to L7 too but it did not come to pass.
The turret was only intended to be shrapnel proof against artillery splinters and small arms fire. The clue in the role is the official name: FV4101 Cromwell Heavy AT Gun originally. A turreted SP AT gun. Unlike a tank it is intended to be used from a hidden protected position where possible. This permits the commander to leave the vehicle and carry a line to a position where he can see the targets even when his own gun blast may obscure direct vision from the vehicle itself and advise the gunner of corrections to reset the aim before the air clears. This is an advantage not a work around. Of course this exposes the squidgy commander to small arms and shrapnel but does give him a superior situational awareness. Used by the Territorial Army through the 1950s until the BAT series of infantry AT guns, and later missiles, took on the AT role with 120mm HESH fire.And the sacrifice to cope with the extra weight of the 20pdr gun was that the new bulkier turret only had 20-30mm of armour and accommodated only 2 crew (with only a driver in the hull). And ammunition was limited to just 25 rounds. David Fletcher of the Tank Museum described it as the fifth worst British tank produced. Some have described It as a throwback to the WW2 tank destroyer concept.
All the more reasons to go with APCR 1st and ASAP, and then with APDS.Problem came with the 17pdr APDS and reports are all over the place, some reports say there was only one bad batch, others say that while accuracy varied none of it was as good as the standard solid shot. You would think that after a couple of tries they would have it worked out. Strangely the 77mm using the same projectiles never seemed to have the problems the 17pdr had. One source says the 17pdr was still having problems in Korea. 6-7 year old ammo or they never got it sorted out? Sabots going through the muzzle brake?
Definitely focus on tanks heavier than 24 tons.Yes the 6pdr would be better for HE, but the 75mm guns could usually fire smoke, which the 6pdr never did.
So we are trading a much heavier, larger gun that won't do much better at armor punching for an HE shell that is around 1/3 as powerful as the 75mm low velocity.
Depending on the size of the tank we accept a lot of other negative points. If we go for a 20-24 ton tank we can overcome many of them.
The 77mm HV was of the 3in calibre, ie. 76.2mm. It was capable of using the same shells & projectiles as the 17pdr.The larger 75mm and shorter cartridge were mated with a shortened 17lber barrel and ammo to produce the HV 77mm
as used in the Comet.