German logistics, purchase programs and war booty, reality and alternatives 1935-43

[tomo pauk]

Perhaps this might be a more appropriate thread.

If telling Dornier to license produce another aircraft, why not jump straight to the Ju 88 instead of the He 111? Ju 88 had it's first flight in late 1936, and by mid-late 1937 they knew they were onto a winner. Now it took a few more years before it entered service, so setting up another Dornier-ran shadow factory in 1937 might have been a bit too early. Then again, if Udet had not insisted on redesigning the plane for the dive bomber role, maybe it could have been ready somewhat earlier?

Ju-88 - why not? It was able to carry a bigger bomb load, and we're just saved a lots of Ju 211s with the radial attacker/light bomber switcheroo.

Sticking the G-R 14N's on the Ju 88 could have been interesting as well. Probably mostly a wash performance-wise compared to the Jumo 211, but at least it would have been a second source of engines. But if (pretty big if!) they could have produced the G-R 14 radials in sufficient numbers, could this have largely replaced the need for the Jumo 211, allowing Jumo engineering to focus more on next generation projects like the 213 and 004?

Without the need for making the 14M, G&R can make a good number of 14Ns, to what the number of these engines captured can be added (1000 complete engines + 400 engines worth of spares were 'found' per German counting in 1942).

BTW - Jumo were showing off the Jumo 213 graphs with the swirl throttle already by late 1941. That might've been a boon on the Jumo 211, giving it perhaps another 100 HP down low without tanking anything in the higher altitudes - not too shabby with 1600 HP for take-off for the 211N?
The Jumo 211 might've been improved a lot with a 2-stage S/C, too. But then again, the 14R was also there for the German to ponder come 1941...

 

[mack8]

A question about the MG FF and a hypothetical belt feed mehanism. If the germans somehow managed to do that early enough, just like the japanese eventually did, how many rpg could be fitted in the Bf-109E wing? Same for the Bf-109F-1 axial MG FF. When the MG-151/20 was fitted iirc 150 rpg was the ammo supply. Could a close figure be viable for a belt fed MG FF as well? Also does that mean there is no need for underwing bulges for the drums on the Bf-109E and Fw-190 models if the guns were belt fed?

 

[tomo pauk]

A question about the MG FF and a hypothetical belt feed mehanism. If the germans somehow managed to do that early enough, just like the japanese eventually did, how many rpg could be fitted in the Bf-109E wing? Same for the Bf-109F-1 axial MG FF.

While the belt-fed MG FF was indeed hypothetical on the 1-engined fighters, it was a reality on some Do 217 night fighters.
The motor cannon on the 109 was with 150-200 rds (?) IIRC. MG FF(M) used the more slender ammo than the MG 151, so the numbers carried could've been greater.

When the MG-151/20 was fitted iirc 150 rpg was the ammo supply. Could a close figure be viable for a belt fed MG FF as well? Also does that mean there is no need for underwing bulges for the drums on the Bf-109E and Fw-190 models if the guns were belt fed?

The more slender ammo might allow still for 150 dr/gun to be carried in the wings. Yes, the ammo belts will need to be set as it was the case with British fighters, ie. parallel to the datum line, and not in 'spiral' like the MG 151s had above the gondolas.
Drums were a reason for the bulges under the wings on the fighter with the MG FFs there, so without the drum, the need to have the bulges is probably not there anymore.

 

[mack8]

While the belt-fed MG FF was indeed hypothetical on the 1-engined fighters, it was a reality on some Do 217 night fighters.
The motor cannon on the 109 was with 150-200 rds (?) IIRC. MG FF(M) used the more slender ammo than the MG 151, so the numbers carried could've been greater.


The more slender ammo might allow still for 150 dr/gun to be carried in the wings. Yes, the ammo belts will need to be set as it was the case with British fighters, ie. parallel to the datum line, and not in 'spiral' like the MG 151s had above the gondolas.
Drums were a reason for the bulges under the wings on the fighter with the MG FFs there, so without the drum, the need to have the bulges is probably not there anymore.

Thanks for the insight. From memory the Zero for instance went from 100 rpg drums to 125 rpg belts. I've read that in Hurricanes and Spitfires the count increased from 60 rpg in drums to 120 in belts, though that is for a different cannon. And there is the IAR-81C with 175 rpg for the Mausers vs. 60 for the drum fed Ikarias, though presumably some of the increase was from removing two 7,92mm MGs. Are there figures for FW-190 outer Mauser cannons rpg that replaced the MG FF, as strangely i couldn't find anything quickly online?

I'm trying to guesstimate how many MG FF rounds could the Bf-109E carry with belts instead of the 60 rpg drums. What would you say is a realistic figure, is 90-100 feasible, too little, too much? Based on what you say, a belt fed axial MG FF should carry at least same number of rounds like the MG 151 right, so 150 rpg for a Bf-109F-1 is doable (hence at least rectifying one of the complaints regarding firepower)?

 

[tomo pauk]

Are there figures for FW-190 outer Mauser cannons rpg that replaced the MG FF, as strangely i couldn't find anything quickly online?

140 rd/gun for the outer MG 151s on the A6.

I'm trying to guesstimate how many MG FF rounds could the Bf-109E carry with belts instead of the 60 rpg drums. What would you say is a realistic figure, is 90-100 feasible, too little, too much? Based on what you say, a belt fed axial MG FF should carry at least same number of rounds like the MG 151 right, so 150 rpg for a Bf-109F-1 is doable (hence at least rectifying one of the complaints regarding firepower)?

My idea is to remove the cowl LMGs (and later not to install the HMGs) and their ammo, obviously.
Ideally, 200 rd for the central gun, and 150 rd for each of the wing guns. Minimum will probably be 150 rd for the central gun and 100 rd for each of the wing guns, IMO.