British .303 vs 50 Cal M2

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"It is a fair bet that the Air Staff rejected this option on the ground that 'If this is what the Americans are doing, it is almost certainly wrong'.
Citation needed on that one. Where's that eyeroll emoji?.
Yes, but it was a similar viewpoint that resisted the adoption of submachineguns for the British Army, especially the proven Thompson M1928, because they were "gangster guns"! When, in 1938, the Air Ministry ordered the American and quite excellent Lockheed Hudson for coastal patrols, there was equal uproar, with letters to the Times accusing the Air Ministry of "treason". :)
 
4 x .50s would be less than adequate for downing a B17 or HE177.
But the Allies didn't really have to worry about the HE177 because they tended to catch fire by themselves! Indeed, the most common Luftwaffe day bomber the Western Allies faced from 1941 onwards was the Junkers 88, for which four .50 Brownings was more than adequate and six was ample.
 
But the Allies didn't really have to worry about the HE177 because they tended to catch fire by themselves! Indeed, the most common Luftwaffe day bomber the Western Allies faced from 1941 onwards was the Junkers 88, for which four .50 Brownings was more than adequate and six was ample.
This is pure hind sight. Until the decision was made by the RAF to switch to cannon the LW was making as much progress as the UK and USA was. RAF pilots armed with rifle calibre guns were "alarmed" to say the least at the destructive power of German cannon.
 
This is pure hind sight.....
Well, yes and no. The Air Ministry had already specified the Hispano 20mm as the "ideal" bomber-killer, but they already had intelligence that the Luftwaffe was concentrating on building tactical bombers like the Heinkel 111 and Junkers 88. Goering was a numbers man, and he argued he could build two tactical bombers for the price in time and materials as a four-engined strategic bomber. That was great as long as the Wehrmacht just needed the Luftwaffe to supply tactical support, but a real problem when the problem was one of strategic bombing. General Weaver was the only man in the early Luftwaffe with the interest in strategic bombing and really in a position of power to influence matters. When he died so did the Ural Bomber. The poor Heinkel 177 was cursed by Goering's love for dive-bombing and the DB606 "twinned" engine. By the time the idea was properly resurrected in 1942, in the Amerika Bomber project, it was already too late for the over-stretched German aircraft industry. MI6 had long been aware of the economic problems facing Germany pre-War, which is one of the reasons many in Whitehall simply failed to believe that Hitler would go to war in 1939. Hence, no need to worry about a German equivalent to the B-17.
 
Well, yes and no. The Air Ministry had already specified the Hispano 20mm as the "ideal" bomber-killer, but they already had intelligence that the Luftwaffe was concentrating on building tactical bombers like the Heinkel 111 and Junkers 88. Goering was a numbers man, and he argued he could build two tactical bombers for the price in time and materials as a four-engined strategic bomber. That was great as long as the Wehrmacht just needed the Luftwaffe to supply tactical support, but a real problem when the problem was one of strategic bombing. General Weaver was the only man in the early Luftwaffe with the interest in strategic bombing and really in a position of power to influence matters. When he died so did the Ural Bomber. The poor Heinkel 177 was cursed by Goering's love for dive-bombing and the DB606 "twinned" engine. By the time the idea was properly resurrected in 1942, in the Amerika Bomber project, it was already too late for the over-stretched German aircraft industry. MI6 had long been aware of the economic problems facing Germany pre-War, which is one of the reasons many in Whitehall simply failed to believe that Hitler would go to war in 1939. Hence, no need to worry about a German equivalent to the B-17.
If the non aggression pact had continued or Hitlers invasion of Russia had been successful all previous bets and intelligence are "off".
 
I'd be happy with 4x .303 and 2x 20mm, I'd load the .303's with tracer/incendiary and use them to get the right deflection/lead angle, a quick flick of the thumb as soon as I saw the ''flash'' of a hit and the SAPI's would be on their way, all hypothetical of course but that would be my choice.
By the time you see the flash of your 303's on the enemy plane and press the button for your 20mm the firing solution will have already changed and the 20mm will miss.
 
If the non aggression pact had continued or Hitlers invasion of Russia had been successful all previous bets and intelligence are "off".
Too true! But then Hitler didn't have to invade Poland either. He could have avoided war with France and Britain by using his allies in south-eastern Europe such as Romania to attack Russia, or invaded via Finland. Invading Poland set up a confrontation with the Allies. Invading the USSR via Romania would probably have brought quiet support from the UK at least, though the French probably would have got a bit hysterical. So, let's imagine Hitler doesn't invade Poland in 1939, he waits until May 1941 and invades the USSR from Finland and Romania. There is no Mediterranean campaign because Italy would never have gone to war. The attack on the USSR doesn't threaten the British Empire, it actually promises to remove an enemy of the Empire. Poland would be ambivalent because it would be quite happy to see the USSR defeated. Britain might even sell Germany the long-range bombers to do the Ural Bomber role when the Luftwaffe realised they needed them. No combat losses from Norway and the Low Countries or the Battle of Britain, no three week delay due to the Greek campaign. I'd say Germany would have taken Moscow easily, especially if Hitler could persuade the Japanese to attack the USSR instead of Pearl Harbor.
 
Too true! But then Hitler didn't have to invade Poland either. He could have avoided war with France and Britain by using his allies in south-eastern Europe such as Romania to attack Russia, or invaded via Finland. Invading Poland set up a confrontation with the Allies. Invading the USSR via Romania would probably have brought quiet support from the UK at least, though the French probably would have got a bit hysterical. So, let's imagine Hitler doesn't invade Poland in 1939, he waits until May 1941 and invades the USSR from Finland and Romania. There is no Mediterranean campaign because Italy would never have gone to war. The attack on the USSR doesn't threaten the British Empire, it actually promises to remove an enemy of the Empire. Poland would be ambivalent because it would be quite happy to see the USSR defeated. Britain might even sell Germany the long-range bombers to do the Ural Bomber role when the Luftwaffe realised they needed them. No combat losses from Norway and the Low Countries or the Battle of Britain, no three week delay due to the Greek campaign. I'd say Germany would have taken Moscow easily, especially if Hitler could persuade the Japanese to attack the USSR instead of Pearl Harbor.
It was all about oil, just like today. The Caucasus had oil. The East Indies had oil. The Germans and the Japanese had none.
 
It was all about oil, just like today. The Caucasus had oil. The East Indies had oil. The Germans and the Japanese had none.
True, but the Germans did have the Romanian oilfields, and if they had not had to fight the Western Allies, they could have concentrated on capturing the Caucasus oilfields. If they had captured Baku, and had strategic bombers to destroy the remaining Soviet oilfields in the Urals, then the Soviets would have been the ones desperate for fuel. It does beg the interesting question; if the West was not at war with the Nazis, would the USA ship fuel to the Soviets?
 
True, but the Germans did have the Romanian oilfields, and if they had not had to fight the Western Allies, they could have concentrated on capturing the Caucasus oilfields. If they had captured Baku, and had strategic bombers to destroy the remaining Soviet oilfields in the Urals, then the Soviets would have been the ones desperate for fuel. It does beg the interesting question; if the West was not at war with the Nazis, would the USA ship fuel to the Soviets?
We did ship fuel to the Soviets, but it was aviation fuel. The Nazi's lost because they were Nazi's. Perhaps a better way for the Germans to have become the masters of Europe would have been through trade.
 
We did ship fuel to the Soviets, but it was aviation fuel. The Nazi's lost because they were Nazi's. Perhaps a better way for the Germans to have become the masters of Europe would have been through trade.
Perhaps a better way?
Germany has become the master of Europe thru trade, it's from all the money Germany has made selling higher priced BMW, Mercede, Audi, Porsche cars to rich people in the USA and Volkswagens to the masses of the world.
 
I've since found the event in Donald Caldwell's The JG26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945, on page 91. Caldwell says the two pilots were a Hauptman Kelch and a Leutnant Reck, with Kelch making it back to Silverskiya in one piece. So, not two FW190s lost to two I-153s armed only with Browning .303s, but one definitely was.

I asked Juha, if anyone knows, hi knows.

"Prien and partners Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen
Luftwaffe Teil 12 / III is also found info in lost list, Reck shot down by the Finns I-153, but Brewster 239 in the text in reports.
Also, I looked at those claims, Finnish shot down 1 La-5 and 2 LaGG-3
by the Brewsters, Wind and Vesa. "

Means that time that area, there is two Brewster. It is therefore very unlikely that I-153 would have made it.

And i still wonder the change from 7.62 to 7.7mm.
7.7 is not the standard of the Finnish army.

Off course is possible, we have 12 pc Hurricane, Cladiators etc.
 
By the time you see the flash of your 303's on the enemy plane and press the button for your 20mm the firing solution will have already changed and the 20mm will miss.

Plenty of real gun camera footage on youtube of planes being taken under fire and tracers walking onto the target and then the pilots taking quite a few seconds to react once they do start taking hits, which is more than enough time.
 
Plenty of real gun camera footage on youtube of planes being taken under fire and tracers walking onto the target and then the pilots taking quite a few seconds to react once they do start taking hits, which is more than enough time.

Almost all that gun camera film you watch on U-Tube is shown in slow motion, hardly realistic.
 
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It was done, it was sometimes advocated, it sometimes worked, doesn't mean it was really a good idea. Particularly for the Spitfire. you had 12 seconds of firing time for the 20mm (once they got belt feed on the Vc) and around 17-18 seconds firing time for the .303s. Pull that .303 sighter trick very often and you run out of .303 ammo before the 20mm guns run out.

Then you have the problem of the different times of flight of the 20mm and .303 ammo. The 20mm ammo comes out of the muzzle about 16-17% faster than the .303 and the big shells don't slow down as quickly so the difference in time of flight only increases with range. Throw in that the average human reaction time is just under a 1/4 of a second and a 300mph airplane will have moved just over 100 ft in that time alone and you start seeing that the technique doesn't really gain all that much.
 
I think an obvious point. The average pilot had few opportunities to get a good shot at an enemy aircraft, when the chance came you let fly with everything you had. Real war isn't a simulation, if you get the chance, then you take it.
I have read a couple of reports where a crew was up against a pilot who first fired with one type of weapon and then with the rest. All these crews had the same thought, 's___t we're in trouble, it's an expert'.
 
Trying to boresight an enemy plane especially a fighter with one weapon, seeing hits then firing another weapon that has a totally different velocity and trajectory seems like a waste of time. If he is close enough that trajectory doesn't matter then you shouldn't need to use the light guns to boresight him. If he's far enough away you need to use light guns to boresight him then the trajectory comes into play. All the while he's moving and maneuvering. If he's a fighter then he's gone, if he's a big bomber then you should shoot everything at once because he's a big target. If your strafing you only have a couple of seconds to fire anyway so you use everything
 
It was done, it was sometimes advocated, it sometimes worked, doesn't mean it was really a good idea. Particularly for the Spitfire. you had 12 seconds of firing time for the 20mm (once they got belt feed on the Vc) and around 17-18 seconds firing time for the .303s. Pull that .303 sighter trick very often and you run out of .303 ammo before the 20mm guns run out.

Then you have the problem of the different times of flight of the 20mm and .303 ammo. The 20mm ammo comes out of the muzzle about 16-17% faster than the .303 and the big shells don't slow down as quickly so the difference in time of flight only increases with range. Throw in that the average human reaction time is just under a 1/4 of a second and a 300mph airplane will have moved just over 100 ft in that time alone and you start seeing that the technique doesn't really gain all that much.

Your shooting anyway regardless of what guns you have, you may as well pull onto the target using the 17-8 seconds of 303's before toggling the switch to the 20mm's to finish the job, if you run out of ammo but destroy the target that's good enough for me. Reading up on the aces, they all used the same tactic, get in close, hit hard and get away, the time of flight between both types of ammunition is a mute point if shooting within say 250m using that technique. Furthermore, I feel the idea of the enemy plane moving out of the way or the pilot reacting to all this is overstated somewhat considering that the whole scenario would be over in a matter seconds, as discussed on another thread, something like 80% of pilots that were shot down didn't see or know they were under attack until it was too late.
 
. Furthermore, I feel the idea of the enemy plane moving out of the way or the pilot reacting to all this is overstated somewhat considering that the whole scenario would be over in a matter seconds, as discussed on another thread, something like 80% of pilots that were shot down didn't see or know they were under attack until it was too late.
True but also true that the vast majority of ammunition fired never hit anything.
 

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