David Fred
Airman
- 46
- Feb 7, 2018
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besides using wikipedia, what was the difference in weight between a Mk.5 Hispano and M2 Browning?
View attachment 490423
Here's the comparison between the 20mm Hispano and the Mk108 30 x 99.Note that only 1/3 of the 30mm is propellant. Muzzle velocity is only 550 m/s, which means a 5 meter drop at 550 meters. Plus, the plane had 100 rounds per gun firvthe bottom two, and 80 founds per gun for the top two.
This is an interesting (if crappy) cannon. In order to increase rate of fire from about 410 rpm to 600, instead of mounting the recoil spring around the barrel like a Bofors, they put it behind the bolt. To prevent a release of explosive gases in the fuselage, it had a very short barrel, (44cm) hence the lower muzzle velocity.
Great post David, basically it shows why the RAF switched from 8 x rifle (sometimes 12) 0.303 calibre mgs to 20mm cannon in 1940/41, and why the P-51 upped from 4 to 6 guns between the B/C and the D version.View attachment 490424 View attachment 490424
One other thing I did, using the book I mentioned, and another called "Who Won the Battle of Britain" by Wing Commander H.R. Allen. I put it in a spreadsheet, because in 40 years I still can't build a table in Microsoft Word.
It's in the top table.
Below is the cartridge photos of the 20mm and the 30mm. Sorry, I'm new at this.
Here's the comparison between the 20mm Hispano and the Mk108 30 x 99.Note that only 1/3 of the 30mm is propellant. Muzzle velocity is only 550 m/s, which means a 5 meter drop at 550 meters. Plus, the plane had 100 rounds per gun firvthe bottom two, and 80 founds per gun for the top two.
This is an interesting (if crappy) cannon. In order to increase rate of fire from about 410 rpm to 600, instead of mounting the recoil spring around the barrel like a Bofors, they put it behind the bolt. To prevent a release of explosive gases in the fuselage, it had a very short barrel, (44cm) hence the lower muzzle velocity.
Great post Fred, basically it shows why the RAF switched from 8 x rifle (sometimes 12) 0.303 calibre mgs to 20mm cannon in 1940/41, and why the P-51 upped from 4 to 6 guns between the B/C and the D version.
BTW I always used to construct tables in Exel and paste them into Word.
It just seems an odd comparison because they are different eras. If there were any 8 x 0.303 armed Spitfires or Hurricanes flying in 1944 they weren't being used as fighters. You could also compare the firepower of the Mustang Mk I with 4 x 20mm cannon ordered in 1940 with P-51B/C with 4 x 0.5" mgs since these were operational in the same era.Thanks. Now that I am getting on a bit, I find the time to buy and read these specialist books, and this is a good one, not cheap, and supposedly in "layman's terms" (layman what I can't imagine).
MK 108 was a very good cannon, throwing good-sized HE shells at good rate of fire, while being lightweight for all or that.
A reason why the MK 108 have had low MV was that propellant charge was of light weight when compared with weight of the shell. What version of the MK 108 was with 410 rds/min?
It just seems an odd comparison because they are different eras. If there were any 8 x 0.303 armed Spitfires or Hurricanes flying in 1944 they weren't being used as fighters. You could also compare the firepower of the Mustang Mk I with 4 x 20mm cannon ordered in 1940 with P-51B/C with 4 x 0.5" mgs since these were operational in the same era.
Part of an article by Roy Braybrook. Air International September 1985...
There was none. The author points out that a longer barreled version with a conventional Bofors type recoil spring and without Advanced Primer Ignition would have had higher MV but lower rate of fire.
The projectile had 83 grams of explosive in Mk 108, a substantial load, useful against slow moving bombers, but a fighter speeds, withe the trajectory of a drop of 1.225 meters at 250 meters, and 4.9 meters at 550 meters, adjusting aim in fast moving combat against maneuvering fighters would have been nearly impossible. In fact, I can find no record of a fighter being downed by this weapon, and on hit would have been enough.
The Germans called it the "pneumatic hammer", because of the the "thunk, thunk, thunk" it made when fired.
Hmm - then why specifying the rate of fire of 410 rds/min at the 1st place? How much higher the MV would've been if the working principe was not the API blowback? Since when the API blowback is equivalent of high RoF and low MV anyway?
The MK 108 have had 30g of propellant, the MK 101/103 112g, both for the Mine shell. So unless the ammo for the MK 108 is helped by fairy dust or unicorn breath, the MV will still remain as it was with the 330 g M-shell.
Re. no record found on MK 108 downing a fighter - how many late-war German records have you read?
That drop on distance - is it for sea level, 10000 ft, 25000 ft?
Interestingly enough, Germans themselves were of opinion that MK 108 is a viable weapon even for the targets doing 700 km/h.
That is probably how the Allied crews called it.
Since when the API blowback is equivalent of high RoF and low MV anyway?
"It was cheap, readily available, fully developed ..."
In the mid 30s when they would have needed to make a decision? I would argue no.
"It is a fair bet that the Air Staff rejected this option on the ground that 'If this is what the Americans are doing, it is almost certainly wrong'.
Citation needed on that one. Where's that eyeroll emoji?
"The irony of the situation was that Luftwaffe aircraft never were armoured against 0.50-in ammunition."
I think he would be surprised at the effect of passing through several feet of aircraft structure would have on a .50 bullet.
Four .50s was optimum for WW II fighters; anything more was excess baggage.
The P-51D had 50% more firepower than the B/C at a gain of only 10% in lethality.
Little known: the upgunned F4F-4 was done at request of the Brits who wanted more punch against German/Italian aeroplanes. But the extra "throw weight" was offset by reduced ammo & therefore trigger time. I asked some Wildcat exponents about that, and got the same response from most (Joe Foss, Swede Vejtasa, George Wrenn, etc): "I saved two guns as get me home insurance."
The FM-2 "Wilder Wildcat" reverted to four guns and did extremely well--in fact, it had by far & away the best kill-loss ratio of any WW II fighter I know of, on the order of 30-1. (Largely reflective of the CVE mission.)