British .303 vs 50 Cal M2

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The Allied aircraft designers believed that the 50 (.5) caliber and the 20mm were satisfactory weapons. They were capable of taking down aircraft, fighters, heavy bombers as well as dealing with a lot of ground installations.
The Allied forces preferred weapon systems that were jack of all trades; and they preference standardization over optimization. The Germans on the other hand preferred weapons that were highly specialized. They developed heavier guns to deal with enemy tanks. They even tried it out on enemy bombers with mixed results. But those same heavily armed aircraft were slow, and vulnerable to enemy fighters. Almost every model and manufacturer from Browning, to Hispano to Oerlikon all had problems either reliability or rate of fire/load capacity. It all depended on what a fighters armament was designed to be used against. Ie: Other fighters, bombers, tanks, shipping or ground targets. I remember reading one B-25 Mitchell pilot's account of the 75mm gun performance and they hated it. There was one time they actually managed to hit a small ship with it and it spectacularly exploded. But they decided not to report that the 75mm scored the kill in case the higher brass decided to give them more heavily armed aircraft. The same was said about the Mosquito's 57mm molins gun. A 6 round capacity is hardly efficient for any aircraft. And one of the reasons the British didnt go above 20mm weapons in fighters was simply down to weight/flight characteristics being rapidly reduced. Some aircraft like the US 37mm airacobra and the Russian 23mm and 37mm guns werre for specific targets, and not so much other fighters.
We all agree the purpose of the gun is to damage the target, right? So when your considering the answer to such a question, you have to consider what the weapon is firing at, regardless of what the weapon is carried on. For the majority of the war, Allied fighters with MGs were rarely shooting at bombers, ships or other armored targets. They were aiming at the other sides' fighters. These rarely required big shells to damage. And the goal was to cause damage, rendering the target unable to perform its mission, not necessarily to blow it up every time. Same reasoning applies to naval guns. Destroyers were never intended to fight battleships so no 16″ main guns. There's also other factors such as the number of rounds carried, fewer if bigger, and the speed of the target, requiring more shots to hit it. Most of the cannons of the day fired so slowly that is was very hard to hit high speed targets. Notice how the later in the war, the bigger the guns became. The Axis nations were more concerned with shooting down bombers, which of course are bigger, slower and harder to bring down. I think the Brits went from their .303 to cannons because they never seemed to have that big machine gun round.
If you consider planes designed to attack ground targets or ships, the cannon get bigger or you see a switch to rockets, which can carry a much bigger payload, usually explosive. Their targets were not moving, slow moving and/or resistant to bullets. But a plane might only carry 8 rockets due to space and weight. And lack of guidance. The Russian guns you mention were primarily meant to shoot German armor as I recall. The .50 cal. Browning was probably close to perfect for attacking other planes or lightly armored targets. Groups of these bad boys were mounted on twin engine bombers in the Pacific and were able to blow holes through the sides of Japanese destroyers. It was still used in US interceptors into Korea. Same effects when mounted on vehicles. The .30 cal was the infantry support weapon because it was meant to shoot men. A .50 was overkill. And heavy.

To sum up: A successful weapon design is rarely a case of building it you because you can but building it to damage a certain type of target well. If it can be used in multiple roles, even better.
 
The same was said about the Mosquito's 57mm molins gun. A 6 round capacity is hardly efficient for any aircraft.

The Mosquito Tsetse carried 25 rounds of 6 pounder 57mm though I have seen claims it carried 28 rounds, possibly the magazine was 25 but 3 more could be loaded 1 in the breech 2 in the loading mechanism.

Groups of these bad boys were mounted on twin engine bombers in the Pacific and were able to blow holes through the sides of Japanese destroyers

The shell plating on a Destroyer was thin Mild Steel you could poke a hole in it and maybe kill or wound some crew but the Destroyer will still be sailing and fighting. As .50 rounds would break up when hitting water there would be no holes below the waterline so all you are really doing is improving the ventilation a tiny bit.

RAF Coastal Command Beaufighters and Mosquitos had a heavier armament than the .50 equipped US attack bombers but they never managed to sink anything bigger than a wooden Trawler with gunfire alone.
 
A story about the M2 .50 as told to me by a friend who served in Iraq. Car drives through the stop point at a camp obviously a suicide bomber. A US Humvee opened up at about 700 yards with its M2 brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm car dodges left and right and carries on brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm car is now about 350 yards away still dodging everyone watching is now looking for places to hide behind brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
car dodges left and right but hits the concrete blocks about 100 yards from the gate and rolls into a ditch with the engine revving madly. bbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....BOOM car explodes M2 gunner whoops punches the air and gets a medal. My friend decides to keep well away from the camp walls and sends in a transfer request to somewhere with fewer suicide car bombs.
 
A story about the M2 .50 as told to me by a friend who served in Iraq. Car drives through the stop point at a camp obviously a suicide bomber. A US Humvee opened up at about 700 yards with its M2 brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm car dodges left and right and carries on brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm car is now about 350 yards away still dodging everyone watching is now looking for places to hide behind brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
car dodges left and right but hits the concrete blocks about 100 yards from the gate and rolls into a ditch with the engine revving madly. bbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....BOOM car explodes M2 gunner whoops punches the air and gets a medal. My friend decides to keep well away from the camp walls and sends in a transfer request to somewhere with fewer suicide car bombs.

50 caliber or 20mm, you still have to hit the target to kill it. (My apologies if this was just a war story and not a '50 BMG is ineffective on Toyota's' story)
 
The Mosquito Tsetse carried 25 rounds of 6 pounder 57mm though I have seen claims it carried 28 rounds, possibly the magazine was 25 but 3 more could be loaded 1 in the breech 2 in the loading mechanism.



The shell plating on a Destroyer was thin Mild Steel you could poke a hole in it and maybe kill or wound some crew but the Destroyer will still be sailing and fighting. As .50 rounds would break up when hitting water there would be no holes below the waterline so all you are really doing is improving the ventilation a tiny bit.

RAF Coastal Command Beaufighters and Mosquitos had a heavier armament than the .50 equipped US attack bombers but they never managed to sink anything bigger than a wooden Trawler with gunfire alone.
Sorry i was referring to the Mossie/B-25 fire rate, which while a/c like the B-25 could carry up to 21 shells. An attack run left the aircraft very vulnerable as only 4-5 shells could be fired off at one time. Then it was the unfortunate job of the navigator to manhandle more into the breach/gunbay. These kinds of large calibre bombers were simply not effective and pilots did not like flying them. Im not 100% about the Mossie, but there is no way 21 75mm rounds that could be fired none stop, and even if there was the barrel would be toast/bent to hell and back
 
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A story about the M2 .50 as told to me by a friend who served in Iraq. Car drives through the stop point at a camp obviously a suicide bomber. A US Humvee opened up at about 700 yards with its M2 brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm car dodges left and right and carries on brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm car is now about 350 yards away still dodging everyone watching is now looking for places to hide behind brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
car dodges left and right but hits the concrete blocks about 100 yards from the gate and rolls into a ditch with the engine revving madly. bbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....BOOM car explodes M2 gunner whoops punches the air and gets a medal. My friend decides to keep well away from the camp walls and sends in a transfer request to somewhere with fewer suicide car bombs.
I dont mean to make light of the situation but at 350 yards one wonders where that guy learnt to shoot.....
 
The Mosquito Tsetse carried 25 rounds of 6 pounder 57mm though I have seen claims it carried 28 rounds, possibly the magazine was 25 but 3 more could be loaded 1 in the breech 2 in the loading mechanism.

A&AEE trials/examination of the installation say 23-round magazine and one in the chamber (24 total).

EDIT: Weights & Loading / CG data also indicate 24 rounds total.
 
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I think the Brits went from their .303 to cannons because they never seemed to have that big machine gun round.
They had piles of the Vickers .50 sitting around, and the Browning M2 was still unreliable on a wing mount. They skipped the .50 because cannons proved to be superior.
 
The Germans had a great respect for the 6pd in the Mosquito. It was very accurate and often used to attack the bridge or AA guns from a distance. The RAF were also keen on them but the rocket was very capable of sinking a small ship which the 6pd wasn't so the emphasis was switched to the rockets and the use of the 6pd wasn't extended
 
They had piles of the Vickers .50 sitting around, and the Browning M2 was still unreliable on a wing mount. They skipped the .50 because cannons proved to be superior.


The .5 Vickers was used as an AA gun or light tank/armoured car gun. I don't believe it was ever used in a production aircraft. The .303 Vickers as NEVER used where the pilot (or crewman) could not get to it in case of a jam. I doubt the .5in Version was any different. That is one big reason for going to the .303 Browning. They wanted a gun that could be mounted in remote areas of the aircraft.

Please look at earlier posts, the .50cal ammo of the 1920s and early/mid 30s (and even British contract ammo of 1940) was loaded to about the same velocity as the .5 Vickers except it used a heavier bullet so the difference in hitting power was much less. The Later ammo was over 20% more powerful. This lower powered ammo makes the british decision to skip the .50 Browning at the time (Pre BOB much easier to understand.
 
This doesn't appear to be true, looking at the early Blenheim, Battle and Gladiator.

I know it is Wiki but....................
"During flight tests, the prototype attained a top speed of 242 mph (389 km/h; 210 kn) while carrying the required four .303 in (7.7 mm) machine guns (two synchronised Vickers guns in the fuselage and two Lewis guns under the lower wing).[5] "

" All MK II Gladiators also carried Browning 0.303-inch machine guns (licence-manufactured by the BSA company in Birmingham) in place of the Vickers-Lewis combination of the MK I."

The First quote is attributed to Francis Mason and not surprisingly his book on British fighters says pretty much the same thing. Early Blenheim and Battle's may have had a Vickers but they switched to Brownings fairly soon. How many planes were retro fitted I have no idea.
 
The Lewis-winged version was an even older variation. The four-Vickers version was an intermediary between that and the four-Browning version. Though it seems to be mostly done to prepare the plane for the new Browning installation rather than a real need to replace the wing-mounted Lewis (the belt-fed Vickers installation being very similar to the upcoming Browning).
 
The punchline to the story, the GIs on the gate had guided Anti Tank Missiles the next day.

That's funny! Although my personal choice if forced into that setting would be a 7.62 minigun. 6,000 rounds per minute would handle anything not armored. Instant action, point and shoot. I wouldn't think you would have time to deploy a guided missile in that short amount of time
 
Sorry i was referring to the Mossie/B-25 fire rate, which while a/c like the B-25 could carry up to 21 shells. An attack run left the aircraft very vulnerable as only 4-5 shells could be fired off at one time. Then it was the unfortunate job of the navigator to manhandle more into the breach/gunbay. These kinds of large calibre bombers were simply not effective and pilots did not like flying them. Im not 100% about the Mossie, but there is no way 21 75mm rounds that could be fired none stop, and even if there was the barrel would be toast/bent to hell and back
The Germans had a great respect for the 6pd in the Mosquito. It was very accurate and often used to attack the bridge or AA guns from a distance. The RAF were also keen on them but the rocket was very capable of sinking a small ship which the 6pd wasn't so the emphasis was switched to the rockets and the use of the 6pd wasn't extended


Of course, the other shoe is that a big gun, like the 6-pdr on the Mosquito or the 75 mm on the B-25 is always there, but rockets aren't.
 
Of course, the other shoe is that a big gun, like the 6-pdr on the Mosquito or the 75 mm on the B-25 is always there, but rockets aren't.
True, but the idea was to stop the target from being there and to do that, the RAF found the rocket to be more effective against shipping. Now had the RAF faced large formations of B17 type bombers, then the 6pd would have really been an interesting option
 
The advantage of rockets is that all the Mosquitoes could carry them rather than having a limited number of MK XVIII's with the 57mm. Once rockets were introduced no more MK XVIII's were produced. Also with rockets you still had four 20mm cannon which could be used for flak suppression.

Overall a Mosquito with 8 rockets and 4 20mm was a more flexible option than one with a 57mm.
 
True, but the idea was to stop the target from being there and to do that, the RAF found the rocket to be more effective against shipping. Now had the RAF faced large formations of B17 type bombers, then the 6pd would have really been an interesting option
Im not so sure about rockets being effective against aircraft/bomber formations. Didnt the Luftwaffe try that on US day bomber sorties? From what i've read it wasn't all that successful or even practical. A bit haphazard with mixed results. Not to mention aircraft loaded up with rockets and heavy canon were meat on the table for escorting fighters.
 

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