British Bombers

[poprune]

I seem to have picked this one up after all the badinage, which might be just as well. But wasn't there a topic around at the beginning? Something about bombers, wasn't it?

How about this one, then: if all the heavy metal that flew over Germany dropping bombs had been replaced by Mosquitos, would they have got the job done that much more effectively and what woud have been the ramifications?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

First of all this topic is about Bombers and has been from the beginning and even they were talking about Bombers.

I dont think it would have been possible nor efficient eneogh. They would have had to build more Mosquitos than bombers plus the Mosquito was not capable of carrying the larger size bombs in large quantities for long distances.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and, i fail to see how, given the mossie was made primarily of wood, that the metal used for lancs would allow m0ore mossies to be built

and i get the feeling this thread is about to turn into a competition between bungle and me.........

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Was that meant for me about the wooden mosquito's. I dont think I said the mosquito was made out of metal?

 

[poprune]

I wan't talking about just Lancs (or Halifaxes or Stirlings) but B17s and B24s, too. Think of it: 5,000-odd Mossies, giving a bomb capacity of roughly 10,000 tons per raid, all of them making precision attacks. Wood? Make 'em in America! Crews? Two per plane as opposed to the multitudes that the heavies carried. Retrain em!
OK, they couldn't lift the cookies or Tallboys or Grand Slams, but would you need them?
Think about it. As a matter of fact, I believe someone actually proposed this very thing during the war but it was turned down because of the commitments already made to production. But its a fascinating theory... and perhaps we wouldn't be talking about well over 60,000 RAF and USAAF aircrew dead now...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The most I have seen a mossie's bomb load to be was just over 6000lb, adn that greatly reduced the range of the Mossie. The mossie could carry 6000lb but not for very far. Also with 6000lb of bombs she would not have been as maneuverable and that would have made her an easy prey for the Fw-190's.

The Mossie was an excelent aircraft and fighter-bomber but she would not have been suited for the mass bombing of Germany.

 

[poprune]

To the best of my knowlege the Mosquito could carry 4,000lbs of bombs to Berlin. And if you hit the right places (and I don't necessarily mean Berlin!) with enough bombs, does it matter what drops them? Except that the Mossie would walk away from most German fighters, of course.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not with 4000lb of bombs it wont.

 

[poprune]

But it did, frequently. Admittedly, it would have to adopt some tactics on the way in (I wonder what sort of radar signature it had?), but there's no reason that you couldn't mix bomber variants with longe-range fighter version, just to give the defenders something to think about. I think light flak might have been a greater threat, given the sheer numbers I'm talking about.
The difficulty, of course, is that I'm talking 'what if?'; if there had been a situation in which Germany found its defences being swamped with thousands of high-speed bombers, then being the ingenious and resilient lot that they were they'd have done something about it. Like developing Wasserfall or the other ground to air missile systems, for instance. Which might have led to emphasis on other sorts of research that would have given us even more of a headache...
Perhaps we'd better go back to Lancs and B17s after all...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well the Ta-152H was developed for the fear of that same threat, and it would have been effective eneogh.

You also have to remember thought that 4000lb of extra weight will reduce the performance of an aircraft in its fighter varient. It would not have been the same.

 

[red admiral]

Yes it makes more sense to use Mosquitos. Carrying a 4000lb bomload and operating singly, or in squadron, but not wings or streams they would be far harder to intercept. Cruise at 250-300mph at 30,000ft before starting a shallow dive up to 400mph for the attack run. This was standard proceedure for carrying a 4000lb bomb. They could also carry 6x500lb internally and 2x500lb externally. 500+ Mosquitos are a far harder target than B-17/B-24s. It is hard to intercept a 400mph bomber in a fighter that does 410mph(Fw190), especially when that bomber is at 20,000ft or higher. The 4000lb bombload is about the same as that carried by the B-17, but on a cheaper and more survivable platform. Later, in 1943-44 upscale to the DH. 101 a larger Mosquito with Sabre engines, 430mph speed and 6000lb bombload.

 

[poprune]

The fighters wouldn't carry bombs, just lots and lots of 20mm ammo. And remember production difficulties for aircraft in Germany in 1944-5; there just wouldn't be enough of anything. Remember, I'm theorising thousands or aircraft. Then again, see my previous post...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont know I believe it could work just not feasable. Very nice what if though.

 

[plan_D]

It wouldn't work. What do you think the Luftwaffe was doing during the Battle of Britain? It was trying to conduct a strategic bomber campaign with twin-engined light bombers, just what the Mosquito was.

The Mosquito could carry a cookie. It being made of wood was not a problem at all, and added to it's flight characteristics.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is pretty much what I am saying. Strategic bombing with heavy bombers was the only way to bring Germany to her knees and it worked.

 

[poprune]

There's a tiny difference in speed between a He111 or Do217 and a Mossie and once again my wild and wonderful theory propounds thousands of 'em. And yes, the Mosquite could certainly carry a 4,000 cookie; I omitted to mention that as a generalisation because someone was sure to come back and mention the 8,000 pounder...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Im with Plan_D it would not work but its a nice "What if".

 

[plan_D]

The Mosquito would not be going full speed during it's inward leg to the target, it couldn't due to heavy bomb load. The Mosquito relied on small, almost Commando, strikes against small but significant targets. They carried small loads to enable them to move quickly and evade Luftwaffe interceptors.

Putting up thousands of Mosquito up on a raid would defeat the whole object of the Mosquito and would leave it prey to the Luftwaffe. The Mosquito was just that, it was an irritating fly that could move in and out of the forest "Fortress Europe" with little contact. If you put them all together, you get a swarm and a swarm. You wave your hands around inside of a swarm, you're more than likely to kill many Mosquitos.

 

[poprune]

I wouldn't call the Pathfinder and Master Bomber Mosquito squadrons 'small and insignificant' or 'commando' raids. They were going out night after night ahead of the bomber streams, marking and backing up the target and staying around directing things until the last of the bombers had gone. As for them being 'swatted', I repeat: the whole idea is that the defences are simply swamped; Germany simply didn't have the resources to put up the number of fighter that would be needed, particularly with the meat-grinder that was the Eastern Front chewing up most of its effort.
Then again (and I repeat) I don't think that such a tactic by the Allies would or could have been countered by conventional means, thoough light flak wouild have been a problem. But Germany was developing ground-to-air missiles, which could well have been accelerated, as well as whatever other ideas might have occurred to their fertile minds.


PS Can't I be a Flight Sergeant instead, please? How about a 'choose your national rank structure' feature, webmaster?

 

[poprune]

Before any reply - apologies about the 'small and insignificant' comment: I misread and/or mis-remembered the post. Sorry.