Build the perfect water cooled engine

[Shortround6]

How would the P-51 have performed (and appeared) with a DB601/DB605?
For that matter, how would any Merlin powered craft have performed appeared with Teutonic power?

A lot of questions in a short sentence. A DB 601 powered P-51 would shown scant difference from an Allison powered P-51. Please note there are several model Allison's and several DB 601s so the question does get a little hard to answer.

Pitting the DB 605 vs the two stage Merlin gets a little tricky also. Which DB605? And at what altitude?
Using a DB 605A gets you a very inferior aircraft. Using some other models of the DB 605 gets even or better than even than the Merlin a certain altitudes but not as good at others.

 

[Shortround6]

The Germans, clever though they were, never bested the Merlin/Griffon. There are other engineering examples where British design has proven superior. Motorcycles being one.
Cheers
John

Blew my tea out my nose on that one. Personal experience being limited to a late 60's Triumph Bonneville and a 1975 BMW R/90. While the BMW had some problems there is no question as to which was the better machine for day to day riding or which one might require a ride home from another vehicle.

 

[Milosh]

I have never seen a drip pan under a BMW, but ever British bike I seen had one.

In bike racing, the last British Constructors Championship was in 1954 (sidecar - Norton) and 1951 (500cc - Norton). For the next 19 years BMW won the sidecar championship. Italian and Japanese bikes ruled the other classes.

Now, where did I put my shovel?

 

[tomo pauk]

How would the P-51 have performed (and appeared) with a DB601/DB605?

We can try year per year.
-1942: V-1710 with 1150 HP @ 11K is inferior vs. DB-601E or DB-605A (@ 1,30ata) by some 20-25%, so the answer is clear
-mid 1943: 1125 HP @ 14,6K MIL, or 1330 @ 11,8K WEP, while 605 now can use 1,42 ata for 1475 PS - the 605 has healthy advantage
-late 1943/early 1944 - Packard Merlin (-3) has plenty of power in all altitudes, but if we can use DB-605-AM, the German engine has advantage under 15K, while 1610-3 is better above 25K (toss-up between 15-25K)
-late 1944: DB-605-AS/ASC/D vs. 1610-7 - both seem to lend no advantage to another one

For that matter, how would any Merlin powered craft have performed appeared with Teutonic power?

Teutonic = 601/605?
Advantage DB from mid 1939-mid 1940, equal after that. Important exception (advantage Merlin) being the time from advent of two-stage Merlin (60 series) 'till 605AS is introduced (circa 18 months?).

well I can't answer those questions, but the P-40F used the Merlin engine ( built by Packard to exacting british specs)
and ground crews pilots complained the Merlin was tempermental, unreliable, had mediocre performance.

Trying to use a late - 1940 design in combat from late 1942 on can hardly yield any praise from the pilots. Those comments about reliability of P-40 powerplants are at odds from comments in P-40's section in "US 100 hundreds" book.

the next version, the P-40K went back to the Allison V-1710, which was more powerful, more reliable, and faster.

I'd say you're wrong here

I think the myth of the Merlin stems from its use in the P-51, which wasn't that great of an aircraft IMO.

Perhaps you can list both bad good things about the P-51, for sake of discussion?

 

[P-40K-5]

not all P-40 powerplants my friend, just the merlin powered 'F' series. Jay Overcash had plenty to say on that subject.
if I'm wrong, oh well.. lets see some proof saying so
plenty has been written on the P-51, good bad. no need to rehash here

 

[tomo pauk]

not all P-40 powerplants my friend, just the merlin powered 'F' series. Jay Overcash had plenty to say on that subject.

Packard Merlin 1610-1 was powering many planes, not just P-40. Along with almost-identical Merlin XX, it was one of most frequent engines in RAF inventory in 1941-42, and it was allowed for WEP rating there - hardly a troublesome engine.
As for V-1710, we can read comments like "prone to overheating", "not the most reliable", "I was afraid it would come apart", "we had more confidence in Merlin than in the Allison", in the book US 100K.

if I'm wrong, oh well.. lets see some proof saying so

You've made the original claim, it's up to you to prove it.

plenty has been written on the P-51, good bad. no need to rehash here

Thought so.

 

[Readie]

Blew my tea out my nose on that one. Personal experience being limited to a late 60's Triumph Bonneville and a 1975 BMW R/90. While the BMW had some problems there is no question as to which was the better machine for day to day riding or which one might require a ride home from another vehicle.

Top man drinking tea. You must be of English stock.
German motorcycles were worthy but, dull. British motorcycles like the BSA Spitfire, Norton Commando, Triumph Bonneville...the list is endless are, by comparison, fast, exciting ,albeit leaky motorcycles. The ultimate British motorbike is the 'Dresda Triton'. it has the best of everything.
1968 Dresda Triton 750cc Classic Motorcycle Pictures
Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

I have never seen a drip pan under a BMW, but ever British bike I seen had one.

In bike racing, the last British Constructors Championship was in 1954 (sidecar - Norton) and 1951 (500cc - Norton). For the next 19 years BMW won the sidecar championship. Italian and Japanese bikes ruled the other classes.

Now, where did I put my shovel?

Here it is....

It was the vertical split crankcase that caused a minor leak on some...well ok, all British bikes. I had a BSA A10 and an AJS 350 and I could not cure the leak. Get a Kawasaki 650 and no leaks...ummm

British bikes have character in spades and in the Manx Norton's case took single pot's to a high and where still winning the TT long after they should have been replaced.

Its a shame that the once great British bike industry faltered but, it did and the rest is history.
I really admire HD who have kept an older design going by clever marketing and selling the image. I have had 3 Harleys and they are very popular in the UK.

Cheers
John

 

[gjs238]

Now if only those British bikes used Merlins.....

 

[Readie]

well I can't answer those questions, but the P-40F used the Merlin engine ( built by Packard to exacting british specs)
and ground crews pilots complained the Merlin was tempermental, unreliable, had mediocre performance.

the next version, the P-40K went back to the Allison V-1710, which was more powerful, more reliable, and faster.

I think the myth of the Merlin stems from its use in the P-51, which wasn't that great of an aircraft IMO.

 

[Readie]

Now if only those British bikes used Merlins.....

I expect some lunatic has tried to fit one. I see some V10 and V8 motorbikes that go like the wind....
Too much for me
Cheers
John

 

[gjs238]

Unless you're riding that bike in the Andes, Himalayas or other similar area, the V-1710 would probably outperform the Merlin

 

[Shortround6]

Top man drinking tea. You must be of English stock.
German motorcycles were worthy but, dull. British motorcycles like the BSA Spitfire, Norton Commando, Triumph Bonneville...the list is endless are, by comparison, fast, exciting ,albeit leaky motorcycles.
Cheers
John

They also had a tendency to leak electrons. Never knew when the electrics were going to just stop in mid-ride. Riding with one hand while using the other to catch/re-tighten falling bits could also be considered exciting but perhaps not in the way you mean
Watching the front wheel dance back and forth about an inch at idle was entertaining though.
The Bonnie was certainly 'flickable' and better off pavement, BMW seemed to send warning signals even in a gravel parking lot. BMW could be ridden several hundred miles one day and then the next and then the next without resorting to prayers, incantations and a good tool kit.

 

[fastmongrel]

I expect some lunatic has tried to fit one. I see some V10 and V8 motorbikes that go like the wind....
Too much for me
Cheers
John

A guy in Aus called Lucky Keizer chopped a pair of cylinders off the end of a Merlin and bolted a headstock to one pot and a swinging arm pivot to the back of the crankcase.

 

[Readie]

Unless you're riding that bike in the Andes, Himalayas or other similar area, the V-1710 would probably outperform the Merlin

haha...I expect so. The metacentric height would make for an amusing cornering experience !

 

[Readie]

A guy in Aus called Lucky Keizer chopped a pair of cylinders off the end of a Merlin and bolted a headstock to one pot and a swinging arm pivot to the back of the crankcase.

Good lord. Is it on You Tube ? I have looked this evening and have found Merlin powered cars, tractors (the owners should be shot for heaping such indignity on Rolls Royce), boats...but, not a bike.

Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

They also had a tendency to leak electrons. Never knew when the electrics were going to just stop in mid-ride. Riding with one hand while using the other to catch/re-tighten falling bits could also be considered exciting but perhaps not in the way you mean
Watching the front wheel dance back and forth about an inch at idle was entertaining though.
The Bonnie was certainly 'flickable' and better off pavement, BMW seemed to send warning signals even in a gravel parking lot. BMW could be ridden several hundred miles one day and then the next and then the next without resorting to prayers, incantations and a good tool kit.

My A10 was a thundering steed and with open megaphones would wake the dead at full chat. Vibrations. leaks, things falling off but, corning and sheer grunt combined with character makes a good bike.Plus, you become a good fixer very quickly... Funnily enough, you couldn't give them away 30 years ago as most people were heading to the showrooms of Yamaha etc. Now, with the 'retro revival' ( what a ghastly phrase) they are worth their weight in gold as people value character more than blandness. Or, perhaps they have the rosy specs firmly on and think it was always better in the 'old days'.
Mr Camerons latest plan to stave off UK bankrupcy is to sell all the old British bikes to you guys 8)
Cheers
John

 

[fastmongrel]

They also had a tendency to leak electrons. Never knew when the electrics were going to just stop in mid-ride.

Joseph Lucas wasnt known as the Prince of Darkness for nothing. I have a BSA A65 Thunderbolt that I wouldnt sell if I was down to my last pound. The Jap and Italian bikes I can take or leave but you even look funny at my Beezer and you will get a 1/2 inch Whitworth spanner round the back of your head.

 

[Readie]

Joseph Lucas wasnt known as the Prince of Darkness for nothing. I have a BSA A65 Thunderbolt that I wouldnt sell if I was down to my last pound. The Jap and Italian bikes I can take or leave but you even look funny at my Beezer and you will get a 1/2 inch Whitworth spanner round the back of your head.

That's the spirit Only a 1/2" though?
Cheers
John

 

[Shortround6]

People funding the "retro Revival" aren't using them to go to work or using them for week long vacation trips without chase vehicles.

I do understand that John Lucas is why you drink warm beer though