Epiccow400
Airman
This was found by someone i know where there was heavy ww2 air activity. Near Kola Bay/Murmansk area. If anybody recognizes what aircraft this was from it would be awesome! thanks!!
Can anybody identify this piece of wreckage found in northern russia?
- Thread starter Epiccow400
- Start date
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Crimea_River
Marshal
It looks to be a flattened rear fuselage section that was curved once upon a time. The teardrop faring might be for a light or antenna.
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
First thing I notice is that it is flush riveted. Not all WWII aircraft were flush riveted. The Hellcat and Wildcat were not, for example. So It probably is a fast airplane.
Another feature is that it has a sharp and straight demarcation line between what presumably are the upper and lower colors. I think only the RAF used that.
Another feature is that it has a sharp and straight demarcation line between what presumably are the upper and lower colors. I think only the RAF used that.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
It reminds me of the DF antenna fairing on the Bf109G(?), but I do not think it is quite the same.
The flush rivets and paint line demarkation could be from a German aircraft also.
Do the panel lines look right for a Bf109? The DF antenna was installed on the upper fuselage centerline just behind the cockpit hood.
The flush rivets and paint line demarkation could be from a German aircraft also.
Do the panel lines look right for a Bf109? The DF antenna was installed on the upper fuselage centerline just behind the cockpit hood.
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cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
A good start would be to determine if the nutplates are SAE or metric threads...
at6
1st Sergeant
It might also help if you found some other wreckage with part numbers. There really is too little to go on.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
OR if they are British (BSF or BA) threads.
That will narrow the field considerably.
With metric threads you will need to research if different European countries used different thread pitches (if you are not familiar with thread forms ask someone with engineering knowledge or ask here and someone will provide a link to thread basics.
I know several different European countries used different spanner sizes for the same diameter metric bolts so it is possible that they also used different thread pitches. I do not see any bolt heads or plain nuts but accurately measuring them with a micrometer or digital vernier would be a great start. If rusty then wire brush them to remove as much scale as possible and measure as many faces as possible to get as accurate an average as possible. Brit and US head sizes are far different and metric has at least two options.
By far your best clue would be finding a part number or inspection stamp on a small part. If you find a circle with an H and a T inside it that is the heat treat stamp used on Brit and US aircraft. I do not know any of the European heat treat stamps but they are probably different and that alone may provide a clue as to the country of origin (most of the languages are different though some are very similar) as I am sure someone here knows what those countries used. (If someone here does know this would be a good place to widen everyone else's knowledge)
A stamp with AC or AN, usually in a circle indicates a US aircraft. An AID stamp indicates British. Again I do not know the Russian, German and other countries equivalents and again others will. (Again if someone knows please enlighten us who are not as knowledgeable).
Part numbers can be a world of knowledge or a world of pain. Part numbers starting 75 can be Boeing, Curtiss, North American or Stearman - and that is just the US manufacturers that I know used that prefix. There could be others. Plus Brit and Euro options.
From the stringer shape it is almost certainly not Curtiss or Bell but it is a common stringer profile used by many.
The short skins are similar to used on the Me-108/109 but the frame shape is wrong for the 108 for certain and if my rusty memory is correct it is also wrong for the 109.
Don't give up - this is probably the best site to crack the puzzle.
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MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
The BF-108 and BF-109, like my Ercoupe, use a fuselage assembly approach where the skins are joggled offset and the lip is where the adjacent skin fits. That does not describe the structure of those skins.
The "porthole" is clearly of great importance because it utilizes a special stringer component rather than just a reinforcing patch.
The "porthole" is clearly of great importance because it utilizes a special stringer component rather than just a reinforcing patch.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Thanks for confirming the 109 was same as 108.
Given most aircraft have longer and narrower fuselage skins rather than short ones that circle (or part circle) the fuselage that should narrow the search a lot. I cannot think of any aircraft other than the 108 and 109 that do but then again my knowledge of non British European aircraft is very limited.
Given most aircraft have longer and narrower fuselage skins rather than short ones that circle (or part circle) the fuselage that should narrow the search a lot. I cannot think of any aircraft other than the 108 and 109 that do but then again my knowledge of non British European aircraft is very limited.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
And I have seen the same stringers on American aircraft. Good ideas spread quickly, and widely, in the aviation industry.
Here is an example on the Stearman 75 (N2S/PT-13/PT-17) series. - the basic model 75 design work was done in 1934. I do not know when Messerschmidt first used it - maybe earlier, maybe not.
That said - the narrow circumferential skins definitely suggest Messerschmidt also so I too would start with one of the Me/BF series aircraft.
Photos taken from the front and rear of the ring frames would help (top arrows) and is that a tag with writing on it (down arrow). On the 108 the ring frames were integral with the skins. I do not know about other Me designs. I am sure others here do know that answer.
Here is an example on the Stearman 75 (N2S/PT-13/PT-17) series. - the basic model 75 design work was done in 1934. I do not know when Messerschmidt first used it - maybe earlier, maybe not.
That said - the narrow circumferential skins definitely suggest Messerschmidt also so I too would start with one of the Me/BF series aircraft.
Photos taken from the front and rear of the ring frames would help (top arrows) and is that a tag with writing on it (down arrow). On the 108 the ring frames were integral with the skins. I do not know about other Me designs. I am sure others here do know that answer.
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Sorry I was being too subtle.
To confirm that the Me 109 rear fuselage stringers have a distinctive flat with double curved ends. I have had several pieces and have one at present as shown from just above teh spornrad.
Attached 109 drawing of rear fuselage stingers and profile.
To confirm that the Me 109 rear fuselage stringers have a distinctive flat with double curved ends. I have had several pieces and have one at present as shown from just above teh spornrad.
Attached 109 drawing of rear fuselage stingers and profile.
Attachments
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Very nice. Lots of views but no cross sections that I could see.
That top view in the first screenshot shows a stringer around a hole very similar to what is on the wreckage in post #1 which is additional support for it being a Messerschmidt product.
That top view in the first screenshot shows a stringer around a hole very similar to what is on the wreckage in post #1 which is additional support for it being a Messerschmidt product.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
These detective threads are great.
Crimea_River
Marshal
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
My fault for being non specific. Silly me. Must be getting old.
I was looking for a cross section of the skin and ring frame at a skin joint to see if the skin and frame are integral like in the 108, or made separately like most other manufacturers, and to see if the skin was joggled (offset) to produce a flush skin at the joint.
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