Canada!

[Dac]

Thanks fo the nod to Canada plan_D.

One of the things about the Canadian contribution to the war was it started from almost nothing.

At 191 Officers and 1,799 ratings in 1939, Canada had enough naval personel to crew one British BB with enough left over for a DD. I think the largest ship in the navy at the time was a Destroyer.

The Canadian Army had something like 8 tanks which were only fit for training. The Army had actually been downsized in the 1930s to save money. Sound familiar?

The RCAF had few modern aircraft but was expanding in the 30s'.

Canada had no real armaments industry before the war and a company that built washing machines in Toronto converted to Bren Guns as did a factory in Thunder Bay which before the war built railway boxcars but during the war built over 1,000 Hurricanes and about 900 SB2Cs for the U.S. Navy for example. Amazingly enough one of its' head designers was a woman. Wish I could remember her name.

All this changed Canada forever, with many Canadians leaving the rural areas to work in the cities.

As for the lost potential you talk about Nonskimmer, our lose was Americas' gain. In the 1950s' Canada had one on the best aerospace industries in the world. We built over 1,800 Sabres for our own and 10 other nations airforces. Avro Canada produced the all-weather CF-100 Canuck and was about to produce the CF-105 Arrow.
When our PM cancelled the Arrow in 1959, it killed Avro Canada and over 35,000 of some of the best aerospace workers in the world headed south to join NASA and American corporations. It was partly Canadian know-how that put Americans on the moon!

Oh Yah, I'd also like to lodge a complaint about the hypnotizing effect of trackends' animated icon

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting post there. Canada was a good example of how a war can bring out the most of people.

 

[Nonskimmer]

The Army had actually been downsized in the 1930s to save money. Sound familiar?

Very.
Good post by the way.

You'll get used to Lee's (trackend's) avatar. I find it to be rather calming.

 

[plan_D]

Just from what I have recently learned about the Aleutians (I haven't finished studying it yet) - Canadians arrived in force during July and August 1942 with;

Air Support
8th Recon Bomber Squadron
111th Fighter Squadron

Both arriving in July to aid in the bombardment of Kiska on August 7th.

Sea Support

Canadian Auxiliary Cruisers -

Prince David, Prince Henry and Prince Robert

Two Canadian Corvettes.

In support of the landing operations on Adak (30th August). All five Canadian vessels were released from Task Group Tare and sent to the South Pacific.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Read the bit about Canadians in the Dams Raid, it's interesting.

Yes, there were a load in 617 Sq IIRC?
I always consider them when I think 'Dambusters'.


I know this is going to sound coarse Wildcat and I really apologise, but I have to say it:

Maybe Australia didn't have a choice but to fight?

Believe me, no-one respects the Australians and their effort more than me, but without Britain, Japan could have taken Oz?

The fate would be much worse than what would happen to Britain or Russia unde the Nazis.

The British would have dented pride and a slight population loss.

The Russians would simply cease to exist and join the Aztecs.

But the Australians would have been mutilated, or worse before, slowly, dying.

However the Nazi's may have turned against the Japanese in aid of 'fellow Aryans' if that was the case maybe?

As I believe they would anyway?

Again, I'm very sorry if I offend anyone by saying that.


Dac

I think without the Canadians, the Manhattan project would have took, how long??

Sorry to mention tanks, but it's something I know about Canadian production:

The Canadian Valentines built at something-or-other locomotive works were superior in armour protection build than the British versions.

Shedloads (shall I get the exact number?) were sent to Russia.

The Russians loved these, and considered them superior to the T34! (even the Brit ones)

However, they thought the 2pdr was pants, so fitted their far superior 76mm.

These were, according to a Russian source, a huge factor in winning the Kursk battles. 8)


Also I was told (by a gunsmith) that Australian SMLE's are far better than the indiginous ones.

Only they are orange wood instead of lovely walnut, and don't seem to look/smell/sound as nice.

Also all Ozzy Brens were Mk1's (better IMHO)

The Owen was a great SMG too, even in Malaya.

Don't think the Boomerang plane was too good though?

 

[plan_D]

The Valentine tanks were built by Canadian Pacific in Montréal. They produced 1,420 vehicles of which all but 30 (which were retained for training) were delivered to the Soviet Union. Valentine marks VI, VII and VIIA were Canadian builds.

The Valentines built in Canada were to U.S production standards. The VI was little different from the British built models. Changes included the nose plates being cast instead of bolted and a Browning .30 cal replaced the Besa MG of the originals. The VII changed the radio set and had internal changes. The VIIA had jettisonable fuel tanks, studded tracks and protective cages over headlamps.

"The Russians admired the robust and simple automative design of the 1940 British Mk.III Valentine, but were merely polite about the tank's main armament, which fell well below Eastern Front requirements. Some tanks had their main armament replaced by 76.2mm (3in) guns in factories in the USSR. The narrow tracks were also reported to be a problem in winter, first clogging with snow, then freezing, and immobilizing the vehicle."

Quote from Russian Tanks of World War II - Stalin's Armored Might - Tim Bean and Will Flower.

Technical information provided by British and American Tanks of World War Two - Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.

 

[Dac]

Some of the weapons produced in Canada wern't as good as the original. Canadian built Lancasters were heavier than British Lancs and performance suffered as a result. Canadian built naval radar wasn't as good as U.S. or British built radar also.

 

[Nonskimmer]

I don't think the weight difference was that significant between the Canadian and British built Lancasters. I've been looking for figures just out of curiosity. Canadian built Lancasters were also powered by Packard Merlins from the States, and this led to some performance issues earlier on. Not to dump on the Packard Merlins FJ, I've read through the thread on Packard vs. RR Merlins, but for whatever reason it effected performance to a degree over the RR powered Lancs. At least at first. Still a damn good plane though, and well built.

In our own defence, and you mentioned this yourself Dac, Canada started the war at practically square one. It was a dead rush to set up production as well as build up the forces, and expertise was gained through the hard experience of trial and error in some cases, with mistakes made along the way. I think we did a helluva job, all things considered.

 

[Dac]

By the end of the war they had most of the bugs worked out. It still amazes me when I think about where Canada was in 1939 and where we ended up in 1945.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Yes, from a tiny squadron of vessels to the third or fourth largest navy in the world (Sources vary. I'm still not entirely sure myself after all these years.), right back to a tiny squadron of ships. He giveth, and he taketh away.

 

[Dac]

With a big brother like the U.S. living next door I guess we get a little lazy about national security here in Canada.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Yeah just a little, and certainly national defence. I'll say it again, it's going to bite us hard in the ass one day. The way the world is these days, it may be sooner than we think too.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It is true like most nations Canada rose from the ashes of WW2 a very powerful nation compared to what it was in 1939.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Cheers for that PlanD!

Changes included the nose plates being cast instead of bolted

That's the main improvement - shot could send the nut/bolt pinging round the hull like a KE round on the UK versions.

Also, the joints were weaker.

Some of the weapons produced in Canada wern't as good as the original.

Hey, don't do yorself Dac!

Not to dump on the Packard Merlins FJ, I've read through the thread on Packard vs. RR Merlins, but for whatever reason it effected performance to a degree over the RR powered Lancs.

I suppose the way to sort that would be Spitfire IX vs Spit XVI performance figures?

I think we did a helluva job, all things considered.

Damn right!

Yes, from a tiny squadron of vessels to the third or fourth largest navy in the world (Sources vary. I'm still not entirely sure myself after all these years.), right back to a tiny squadron of ships.

Well at least when needs must.

You didn't have to help either, thats very heroic IMHO.

I'll say it again, it's going to bite us hard in the ass one day.

Internal security's what matters now.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Didn't have to help? We weren't about to sit it out. Not only was Canada a firm part of the British Empire (as well as the Commonwealth), but the national attitude was extremely pro-Empire back then, with the exception of Québec. Even so, hundreds of young Québécois men volunteered to fight. Believe it or not though, it was actually debated in the Canadian parliament. We didn't actually declare war on Germany until one week to the day after Britain and France did. September 10th 1939.

One interesting thing that many Canadians don't really like to look back upon, and indeed many don't really know about, is the fact that in the days leading up to war the Canadian prime minister had refused Churchill's request to allow British fighter pilots to train in the safety of Canada. It was only later that the Commonwealth Air Training Plan was approved. If MacKenzie King (Canada's prime minister) had allowed British pilots to train here earlier, then perhaps - just perhaps - there wouldn't have been quite the mad rush for pilots at the early stages of the war. It was one of those "Oops!" kind of things. King could be a stubborn man.