“Clock” on the instrument panel of Spitfires, various Mks?

[JDCAVE]

A request on another forum concerns the availability of a vintage "clock" from a Spitfire. Evidently her father wanted a clock from a spitfire for his clock collection and she wanted to get him one for his birthday.

Perhaps I'm "dim" but this is the first I have heard there was a clock on a British WWII aircraft. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that this exists. I've seen numerous illustrations/photos of the instrument panel of a Lancaster, but I can't remember seeing such a dial on a Lanc. Aircrew were issued watches for the expressed purpose of telling/recording time. "Synchronize watches". Wasn't the "clock" slang for the airspeed indicator? These instrument panels were awfully cluttered and I don't think a clock was an essential instrument for this aircraft.

If there is a clock for a "Spitfire" perhaps it's for the Triumph Spitfire?

This is the instrument panel for a Spitfire Mk V, no clock:

Cockpit of a Spitfire MkV showing the instrument panel and controls With thanks to the Aircraft Restoration Company at Duxford for allowing us the photograph the plane Stock Photo - Alamy

Jim

 

[fubar57]

WWII RAF MKIII B Smiths Cockpit Clock. Jaeger Le Coultre 24 hour Time of Trip

WWII RAF MKIII B Smiths Cockpit Clock. Jaeger Le Coultre 24 hour Time of Trip Here we have a very tidy and clean functioning Smiths MK III B Aircraft clock. Stores reference 6A/839. Supplied to the Air Ministry by S. Smith & Sons (MA) Ltd. London. Metal cased Swiss made Jaeger-Le-Coultre...

spitfireparts.co.uk

SMITH

 

[JDCAVE]

WWII RAF MKIII B Smiths Cockpit Clock. Jaeger Le Coultre 24 hour Time of Trip

WWII RAF MKIII B Smiths Cockpit Clock. Jaeger Le Coultre 24 hour Time of Trip Here we have a very tidy and clean functioning Smiths MK III B Aircraft clock. Stores reference 6A/839. Supplied to the Air Ministry by S. Smith & Sons (MA) Ltd. London. Metal cased Swiss made Jaeger-Le-Coultre...

spitfireparts.co.uk

SMITH

Ok. But the link I posted for the Spit MkV instrument panel does not show any dial that looks like that.

Edit: see also this IWM photo, no clock evident:

THE INSTRUMENT PANEL OF A BRITISH SPITFIRE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT.

Original wartime caption: About forty instruments are mounted on the instrument board of the British Supermarine Spitfire fighter aircraft. Some of these are switches, cocks, pumps and lamps which do not call for continual watching, but more than 20 are dials registering some vital operation...

www.iwm.org.uk

 

[fubar57]

Pilot Notes for Mk.ll, Number 20

 

[fubar57]

Pilot Notes for Mk.l, Number 21

 

[JDCAVE]

Interesting! I'm on my boat, and frankly I don't have much in the way of references on the Spitfire at home either. However, I don't see "why" one would be considered necessary on an earlier Mk, when the flight time would be measured in a few short hours, and petrol gauges would be far more important and pilots would have a watch anyways. But if they had them, they had them.

what about the later Mks?

I don't trust the information on the modelling sites.

Jim

 

[fubar57]

You don't trust government documents?

 

[JDCAVE]

You don't trust government documents?

I trust those, but not information on modellers forums. I'm looking at photos of cockpits, and as I said some I have seen don't show them.

 

[JDCAVE]

No clock in the photos for the IX, XI and XVI Manual.

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/spitfire-ix-xi-xvi.pdf

and as the photo in my first post shows, no clock in the control panel in the Duxford Spit V.

 

[fubar57]

You doubted there were clocks in a Spitfire, I have shown you governments documents showing the location of clocks in a Spitfire. They weren't listed in Pilot Notes for the Mk.V so they must have stopped putting them in Spitfires after the Ml.ll. There were clocks in Spitfires

 

[JDCAVE]

You doubted there were clocks in a Spitfire, I have shown you governments documents showing the location of clocks in a Spitfire. They weren't listed in Pilot Notes for the Mk.V so they must have stopped putting them in Spitfires after the Ml.ll. There were clocks in Spitfires

I'm not disagreeing with you. I said "Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that this exists." You have provided proof and corrected my ignorance. I'm just trying to understand which spits had them and which did not.

 

[Gary Cain]

Interesting! I'm on my boat, and frankly I don't have much in the way of references on the Spitfire at home either. However, I don't see "why" one would be considered necessary on an earlier Mk, when the flight time would be measured in a few short hours, and petrol gauges would be far more important and pilots would have a watch anyways. But if they had them, they had them.

what about the later Mks?

I don't trust the information on the modelling sites.

Jim

They are an essential navigation and rendezvous tool.

 

[Chris H]

A request on another forum concerns the availability of a vintage "clock" from a Spitfire. Evidently her father wanted a clock from a spitfire for his clock collection and she wanted to get him one for his birthday.

Perhaps I'm "dim" but this is the first I have heard there was a clock on a British WWII aircraft. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that this exists. I've seen numerous illustrations/photos of the instrument panel of a Lancaster, but I can't remember seeing such a dial on a Lanc. Aircrew were issued watches for the expressed purpose of telling/recording time. "Synchronize watches". Wasn't the "clock" slang for the airspeed indicator? These instrument panels were awfully cluttered and I don't think a clock was an essential instrument for this aircraft.

If there is a clock for a "Spitfire" perhaps it's for the Triumph Spitfire?

This is the instrument panel for a Spitfire Mk V, no clock:

Cockpit of a Spitfire MkV showing the instrument panel and controls With thanks to the Aircraft Restoration Company at Duxford for allowing us the photograph the plane Stock Photo - Alamy

Jim

The image of the ARCs MkV instrument panel appears to show a modern dial where the clock should be. If you look carefully, it appears to have an LCD display.

 

[Chris H]

No clock in the photos for the IX, XI and XVI Manual.

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/spitfire-ix-xi-xvi.pdf

and as the photo in my first post shows, no clock in the control panel in the Duxford Spit V.

...but that's a modern restoration!

 

[Antarctica]

You really need the parts manual for the Mark of Spitfire you want.

Parts Manuals often list both the preferred & alternative items that can be used ie the parts manual for the Bristol Beaufort lists five alternative air-speed instruments & there were others that could be fudged to work if none of those were available in the field.

 

[gumbyk]

They have always been (and still are) required equipment.
As someone else stated, they are essential navigation equipment - especially if you are looking for time on target/rendevous types of operations.
Most navigation was via 'dead-reckoning'. Set a heading, fly for so-many minutes, and hopefully you're at your destination.

 

[MIflyer]

I read of case where a pilot was serving as a navigator on a Blenheim being ferried from the UK to the Med shortly before WWII, with a refueling stop planned on the French Med coast. When they were crossing France he gradually became aware that the expected landmarks were not showing up. It turned out the Blenheim, newly built, had one of the new "sensitive" altimeters, which had three hands indicating thousands hundreds and tens of feet. Not used to seeing such sophistication, the navigator had assumed the instrument with three hands on the panel was the clock and used it to record their takeoff time.

So if you can't find a clock use an altimeter - it will be right twice a day.

 

[AL90]

A request on another forum concerns the availability of a vintage "clock" from a Spitfire. Evidently her father wanted a clock from a spitfire for his clock collection and she wanted to get him one for his birthday.

Perhaps I'm "dim" but this is the first I have heard there was a clock on a British WWII aircraft. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that this exists. I've seen numerous illustrations/photos of the instrument panel of a Lancaster, but I can't remember seeing such a dial on a Lanc. Aircrew were issued watches for the expressed purpose of telling/recording time. "Synchronize watches". Wasn't the "clock" slang for the airspeed indicator? These instrument panels were awfully cluttered and I don't think a clock was an essential instrument for this aircraft.

If there is a clock for a "Spitfire" perhaps it's for the Triumph Spitfire?

This is the instrument panel for a Spitfire Mk V, no clock:

Cockpit of a Spitfire MkV showing the instrument panel and controls With thanks to the Aircraft Restoration Company at Duxford for allowing us the photograph the plane Stock Photo - Alamy

Jim

On the Lancaster the clock was just above the throttle levers.

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dawsonimages/49789138396
Problem with aircraft clocks is that they were fitted to more than one type of aircraft so no such thing as a "Spitfire" clock. Early marks of Spitfire used the same clocks as pre-war aircraft.
In front of me I have a Smith 8 day clock stores Ref. 6A/1275 manufactured in 1944 and repaired in 1952 so no idea what it has flown in or if it ever flew at all.
The post below (10) will give an idea that the same clock could be used in mutiple aircraft.

S SMITH MK3A MKIIIA SPITFIRE 8 DAY COCKPIT CLOCK

Help please its a long shot ?, i found a smiths cockpit clock, no date and not A.M.marked , thinking post war sold by smith's looking for a paper advertisement ? , or has anybody seen another one ? i have a idea but would like anybody's else view first.. thank you for looking

ww2aircraft.net

Aircraft clocks were an interchangeable item and war surplus were used through the fifties and probably the sixties. Seem to remember the Smiths Mk 3 was on the Shackelton flight engineers panel. Requirement is to know the elapse time from take off for fuel consumption and Navigation.

 

[JDCAVE]

Reiterating post #9, No clock in the photos for the Spitfire IX, XI and XVI Pilots notes.

Pilots and Flight Engineer notes for Lancasters MkI, III and X. Air Publication 2062 A, C and F. Pages 51 and 52. No clock identified on the instrument panel. There is, however item #42, "Watch Holder." upper left on the Panel.

Of course time keeping was/is an integral component to navigation. However on a two or four engine bomber it wasn't the pilots job to keep track of time or to navigate. The Navigator, bomb aimer and wireless operator kept detailed records of time. Likely the flight engineer as well.

IMO, in most instances, the pilot relied on his watch for time keeping and dead-reconning.

Where this might get a little trickier, is for long range single engine fighters (Mustangs) and PR Spitfires. Those aircraft may have had more specialized time keeping instruments.

 

[Gary Cain]

Reiterating post #9, No clock in the photos for the Spitfire IX, XI and XVI Pilots notes.

Pilots and Flight Engineer notes for Lancasters MkI, III and X. Air Publication 2062 A, C and F. Pages 51 and 52. No clock identified on the instrument panel. There is, however item #42, "Watch Holder." upper left on the Panel.

Of course time keeping was/is an integral component to navigation. However on a two or four engine bomber it wasn't the pilots job to keep track of time or to navigate. The Navigator, bomb aimer and wireless operator kept detailed records of time. Likely the flight engineer as well.

IMO, in most instances, the pilot relied on his watch for time keeping and dead-reconning.

Where this might get a little trickier, is for long range single engine fighters (Mustangs) and PR Spitfires. Those aircraft may have had more specialized time keeping instruments. View attachment 726245View attachment 726246

In the B-29 both the pilot, and the flight engineer have clocks in their respective panels. The navigator had a even more precise timepiece.

I would suspect that that is true for pretty much all of the bombers out there.

I have yet to see an instrument panel, and I have more than 60 of them, that doesn't have a clock in it.