- Thread starter
- #21
You have 60 vintage instrument panels? I'm impressed!
“Clock” on the instrument panel of Spitfires, various Mks?
- Thread starter JDCAVE
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
I used to have more!You have 60 vintage instrument panels? I'm impressed!
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 42,528
- Mar 26, 2007
How about a show if you would like to do that?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Are any of these artifacts once part of an extinct aircraft?
Sure, I can post up a few.
No, not that I am aware of. I still have a few panels to research though so who knows
Last edited by a moderator:
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
The British needed accurate watches for their pilots and navigators, especially accurate in terms of have a constant and consistent "drift" rate that could be measured and allowed for. The watches were available from Switzerland but trade became very difficult after France fell.
So the Germans would buy watches from Switzerland, fly to Madrid. The British would load up some gold and fly to Madrid. The British gold would be exchanged for the German procured watches through a Spanish intermediary. Both sides knew full well what was going on and on occasion ended up drinking in the same Spanish bar.
And in US aircraft the clocks might be missing from photographs because pilots were issued the clocks along with the airplane and the clocks and airplanes were signed for separately; they were high pilferage items. My HS physics teacher was a pilot in the USN before WWII and positioned himself on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, screwdriver in hand. Inevitably an airplane wrecked on landing and before they could shove it over the side he lept into the cockpit and removed the clock, even as they shouted for him to get out.
So the Germans would buy watches from Switzerland, fly to Madrid. The British would load up some gold and fly to Madrid. The British gold would be exchanged for the German procured watches through a Spanish intermediary. Both sides knew full well what was going on and on occasion ended up drinking in the same Spanish bar.
And in US aircraft the clocks might be missing from photographs because pilots were issued the clocks along with the airplane and the clocks and airplanes were signed for separately; they were high pilferage items. My HS physics teacher was a pilot in the USN before WWII and positioned himself on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, screwdriver in hand. Inevitably an airplane wrecked on landing and before they could shove it over the side he lept into the cockpit and removed the clock, even as they shouted for him to get out.
Barry Bromley
Airman
- 24
- Oct 22, 2016
All marks of Spitfire carried clocks. Standard Smiths or Jaeger 8-day or later 24 hour chronometers. The 8-day had additional time of trip hands that could be set. The 24 hour clock also had this. The Lancaster also carried a socket for the pilot's own stop watch so that bombing runs could be timed. Ir was in the upper left of the panel. The Duxford restored MkV has a moderb digital radio installed where the clock is usually mounted. No standard RAF wartime fighting aeroplane would ever fly without a clock.
- Thread starter
- #30
Yes, see post #19.
However, the pilot wasn't timing bombing runs. He had enough on his plate, keeping the aircraft straight and level and following directions from the bomb aimer. The navigator timed bombing runs using a stop watch, commencing on a signal from the bomb aimer on sighting release point flares through the bomb sight. On timed bombing runs, after the interval specified in the Operational Order (Form B), the navigator released the bombs. The navigator recorded when bomb doors were opened, and when bombs were dropped. Source: F/O Marvin Seale, navigator, F/Lt Cave's crew, personal communication.
The navigator was the time keeper on Bomber command crews. Attached, Nav log, F/O Seale 5/6-March-1945 Target Chemnitz.
Jim
- Thread starter
- #32
Of course he does! But it was not not the pilot's job to keep time. The navigational team was fully integrated and in continuous communication. Upcoming turning points, course alterations, dog legs, loosing time, making up time. These were all based on calculations by the navigator and communicated to pilot and bomb aimer. The bomb aimer's job was to operate the H2S (H2X) so provided fixes that were communicated to the navigator. He was thus a key member of the navigational team.
The pilot is always checking his gauges. The clock is all part of the scan. What does the pilot do if his navigation team is incapacitated?
The pilot needs to be able to do his own dead reckoning if they are not able to do their job.
Barry Bromley
Airman
- 24
- Oct 22, 2016
Nobody said it was the pilot's job to keep time. However, a stopwatch was used by the pilot, otherwise why the clip/socket for one? If the bomb aimer or navigator called out, oh I don't know, " 90 seconds to target" does the pilot start " one battleship, two battleships..." I doubt it. He would use his stopwatch or at a glance, the clock.
- Thread starter
- #35
My dad was a pilot on Lancasters. He talked extensively about his experience. I saw his pilots watch and it did not have a stop watch. Furthermore, over the target, communication was disciplined and professional. Up until he died a couple of years ago, I was in regular with dad's navigator. I'm pretty certainly, the time they were within 90 seconds of the the target, communications between the 3 crucial crew members at that "time" (pilot, navigator and bomb aimer) was about time and distance to the target, minor course adjustments, defences, and so forth. The last thing the pilot is doing is playing around with a stopwatch. Amd if you thing about it, in the dark how visible is the ticking hand of a stopwatch however much luminosity it had?
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #36
Barry: You mentioned 90 seconds from the target, I'm not sure whether that would be realistic. This is what I know to be true from examination of 4 navigational logs (Form 441).
The heading to the target was specified on the route from the last turning point prior to the target. These match exactly, by the way, those recorded in the operational orders. Within the last few minutes to the target, there was no opportunity for adjustment in timing to the target. Any adjustments for timing would have been carried out earlier on the route.
During the run in to the target, the pilot was focused on three primary instruments: compass, (either the Distant Reading Compass, DR, or P10), Air Speed Indicator (ASI unit-in the case of 419 Squadron calibrated in MPH), and altimeter.
In his audio memoirs, dad recorded he could not see the target unless he banked the aircraft, clearly something that was not done on a bombing run. He received instructions on minor course corrections from the Bomb aimer.
Depending on the plan over the target for Pathfinders, on a few situations, offset marking was used and the bomb aimer sighted on Target Indicators or flares. In the case of Chemnitz , 5/6-March-1945, the orders stressed:
"whatever markers are used, the Main Force aircraft are to approach on the detailed track and are to overshoot the centre of the Ground or Sky Markers by twelve seconds. This is to be accurately timed by the navigator on each crew with a stop watch. The centre of the markers is to be selected according to the following order of preference:
A. Large Salvoes of mixed Red and Green Target Indicators.
B. Red Target Indicators.
C. Green Target Indicators.
D. Red Sky Marking Flares with Green Stars. In the latter case, bombsights are to be set for true height and airspeed but zero wind and the centre of the sky markers are to be overshot by twelve seconds on a heading of 152T, 157 magnetic)."
So, 12 seconds from the target, I don't think the pilot is fiddling with or paying any attention to setting or watching a stop watch.
Jim
The heading to the target was specified on the route from the last turning point prior to the target. These match exactly, by the way, those recorded in the operational orders. Within the last few minutes to the target, there was no opportunity for adjustment in timing to the target. Any adjustments for timing would have been carried out earlier on the route.
During the run in to the target, the pilot was focused on three primary instruments: compass, (either the Distant Reading Compass, DR, or P10), Air Speed Indicator (ASI unit-in the case of 419 Squadron calibrated in MPH), and altimeter.
In his audio memoirs, dad recorded he could not see the target unless he banked the aircraft, clearly something that was not done on a bombing run. He received instructions on minor course corrections from the Bomb aimer.
Depending on the plan over the target for Pathfinders, on a few situations, offset marking was used and the bomb aimer sighted on Target Indicators or flares. In the case of Chemnitz , 5/6-March-1945, the orders stressed:
"whatever markers are used, the Main Force aircraft are to approach on the detailed track and are to overshoot the centre of the Ground or Sky Markers by twelve seconds. This is to be accurately timed by the navigator on each crew with a stop watch. The centre of the markers is to be selected according to the following order of preference:
A. Large Salvoes of mixed Red and Green Target Indicators.
B. Red Target Indicators.
C. Green Target Indicators.
D. Red Sky Marking Flares with Green Stars. In the latter case, bombsights are to be set for true height and airspeed but zero wind and the centre of the sky markers are to be overshot by twelve seconds on a heading of 152T, 157 magnetic)."
So, 12 seconds from the target, I don't think the pilot is fiddling with or paying any attention to setting or watching a stop watch.
Jim
Which still doesn't address what the pilot must do in the event his navigator is incapacitated or worse.
- Thread starter
- #38
Agreed. However the Bomb aimer was well instructed in taking over navigational duties, and on dad's crew typically did the navigation from France to base on the return trip. This is recorded in the Form 441. The wireless operator would be requesting Huff Duff and headings. Assuming all these crew members are incapacitated, the best a pilot can hope for is to be able to fly on a heading, assuming a serviceable compass and a rough time and distance calculation.
Dad a wrist watch that he wore with the face on the underside of his wrist. He wore his watch that way for the rest of his life.
It would be something like turn onto a westerly heading (or whatever approximate direction home was) and fly for X minutes.
There is no need for the pilot to know the exact time throughout the whole mission.
