“Clock” on the instrument panel of Spitfires, various Mks?

[gumbyk]

That's what dad affectionately called them. Dad had well over 1,000 hours on them. He was an instructor at the ETFS at Fairoaks. I think one or two of the Fairoaks aircraft are still flying.

Dad in a Tiger moth, Brandon Manitoba, 1941.

View attachment 728007

Canadian Tiger!
Had the luxury of a canopy AND brakes!

 

[JDCAVE]

Canadian Tiger!
Had the luxury of a canopy AND brakes!

Yes, but only a few hours in Canada. Most of his hours were at Fairoaks on the British type.

 

[joemc]

All marks of Spitfire carried clocks. Standard Smiths or Jaeger 8-day or later 24 hour chronometers. The 8-day had additional time of trip hands that could be set. The 24 hour clock also had this. The Lancaster also carried a socket for the pilot's own stop watch so that bombing runs could be timed. Ir was in the upper left of the panel. The Duxford restored MkV has a moderb digital radio installed where the clock is usually mounted. No standard RAF wartime fighting aeroplane would ever fly without a clock.

Hi
I've just bought a smiths jaeger mk 111b 24hr clock, so these were used on spitfires too ?

 

[fubar57]

According to this, also used in Spitfires

RAF Mk.III aircraft 'time of trip' cockpit clock

Stores reference 6A/839. Supplied to the Air Ministry by S. Smith & Sons (MA) Ltd. London. Metal cased Swiss made Jaeger-Le-Coultre 8-day jewelled lever keyless movement with 7.5cm 24-hour black dial, luminous Arabic numerals and subsidiary 12-hour dial which registers the 'time of trip'...

www.historicflyingclothing.com

 

[joemc]

Ah yeah I've came across that, just wondered if there was any photo evidence,
Thanks for the reply much appreciated

 

[coffman]

According to this, also used in Spitfires

RAF Mk.III aircraft 'time of trip' cockpit clock

Stores reference 6A/839. Supplied to the Air Ministry by S. Smith & Sons (MA) Ltd. London. Metal cased Swiss made Jaeger-Le-Coultre 8-day jewelled lever keyless movement with 7.5cm 24-hour black dial, luminous Arabic numerals and subsidiary 12-hour dial which registers the 'time of trip'...

www.historicflyingclothing.com

Sorry if you read the sales blog, on both sites. they both say the same I believe & we believe . i would take that with a pinch of salt. sorry i have heard stories like that before.

I believe the MKIII B was fitted to early Spitfires and Hurricanes and the MKIII B is considerably rarer than the 12 hour MKIII A.

WWII RAF MKIII B Smiths Cockpit Clock. Jaeger Le Coultre 24 hour Time of Trip

WWII RAF MKIII B Smiths Cockpit Clock. Jaeger Le Coultre 24 hour Time of Trip Here we have a very tidy and clean functioning Smiths MK III B Aircraft clock. Stores reference 6A/839. Supplied to the Air Ministry by S. Smith & Sons (MA) Ltd. London. Metal cased Swiss made Jaeger-Le-Coultre...

spitfireparts.co.uk

We believe the MK.IIIB that was fitted to early Hurricane & Spitfire fighters as well as some Beauforts, Battles, Beaufighters & other aircraft. The 24 hour version (IIIB) is considerably rarer than the 12 hour (IIIA).

RAF Mk.III aircraft 'time of trip' cockpit clock

Stores reference 6A/839. Supplied to the Air Ministry by S. Smith & Sons (MA) Ltd. London. Metal cased Swiss made Jaeger-Le-Coultre 8-day jewelled lever keyless movement with 7.5cm 24-hour black dial, luminous Arabic numerals and subsidiary 12-hour dial which registers the 'time of trip'...

www.historicflyingclothing.com

 

[joemc]

Yeah I don't read too much into it, I did hear from someone who knows his stuff the one that said coastal command used them specifically, and that the PR spitfire used them, I shared a drawing of the pr spitfire cockpit and it looks like a 24hr but hard to tell if it's this one.

Here's the photo

26 ?

 

[MIflyer]

Funny thing was that early RAF WW2 aircraft had altimeters that only had one hand on the display. Many US light aircraft of the time had altimeters of that type as well. Before the war a crew was taking a new Blenheim across the Channel, over France, to an airfield on the Med coast to refuel and then on to Egypt. The pilot assigned to navigate had not seen one of the later altimeters with two hands before and assumed it was the clock. He wrote the altimeter numbers down as the time of takeoff and did not realize his error until they were over France and landmarks were failing to show up on time. They wanted to fly as direct a route as possible but not stray over Spain, where some BF-109's might provide unpleasant escort. They had to frantically recalculate their course.

 

[fubar57]

On the Britmodeller site it said that the clocks were used up to the Spitfire Mk.ll and because the were losing so many Spitfires and the clocks were so expensive that they stopped installing them and the pilots were issued wristwatches instead. The post also said the same as the two posts above as to which aircraft carried them as well as Coastal Command. I just report what I read

 

[joemc]

Cheers guys

 

[joemc]

On the Britmodeller site it said that the clocks were used up to the Spitfire Mk.ll and because the were losing so many Spitfires and the clocks were so expensive that they stopped installing them and the pilots were issued wristwatches instead. The post also said the same as the two posts above as to which aircraft carried them as well as Coastal Command. I just report what I read

 

[joemc]

Have you got a link to that please mate ?
Cheers

 

[MiTasol]

Interesting! I'm on my boat, and frankly I don't have much in the way of references on the Spitfire at home either. However, I don't see "why" one would be considered necessary on an earlier Mk, when the flight time would be measured in a few short hours, and petrol gauges would be far more important and pilots would have a watch anyways. But if they had them, they had them.

what about the later Mks?

I don't trust the information on the modelling sites.

Jim

One of the many reasons that a clock was fitted was for very basic navigation. Using the bat and ball in the basic six and turning for x seconds will give you y degrees direction change. LAter aircraft used fob watches that in many cases could be synchronised during pre take off briefings and were mounted in a rubber cup.

The old vacuum directional gyros were effected by precession so under read when turning one direction and over read while turning the opposite.

The four different clocks fitted to the Mk VC (and VIII) are shown below. I would expect the VA and VB, and other marks of the day to use the same clocks.

If you go to Smiths jaeger mk3b there is a discussion on the aircraft types which use the Mk IIIB. Hudson and Beaufort for certain and possibly/probably other Coastal Command aircraft.

EDIT - the same thread has a simple description from one of Alan Hulme's books covering the differences between the various Mk III clocks and the RAF Ident numbers for each variant.

I personally doubt that the Mk IIIB was fitted to Spitfires as they were not capable of long flights whereas Coastal Command and bomber command aircraft would often start a flight before midnight and extend into the next day so it makes logical sense for the Mk IIIB being used on those aircraft. The small dial at the top of the clock is for recording elapsed time of the flight. To me there is no logical reason to fit a 24 hour clock to any aircraft that would never be operating past midnight.

 

[MiTasol]

A request on another forum concerns the availability of a vintage "clock" from a Spitfire. Evidently her father wanted a clock from a spitfire for his clock collection and she wanted to get him one for his birthday.

Perhaps I'm "dim" but this is the first I have heard there was a clock on a British WWII aircraft. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that this exists. I've seen numerous illustrations/photos of the instrument panel of a Lancaster, but I can't remember seeing such a dial on a Lanc. Aircrew were issued watches for the expressed purpose of telling/recording time. "Synchronize watches". Wasn't the "clock" slang for the airspeed indicator? These instrument panels were awfully cluttered and I don't think a clock was an essential instrument for this aircraft.

If there is a clock for a "Spitfire" perhaps it's for the Triumph Spitfire?

This is the instrument panel for a Spitfire Mk V, no clock:

Cockpit of a Spitfire MkV showing the instrument panel and controls With thanks to the Aircraft Restoration Company at Duxford for allowing us the photograph the plane Stock Photo - Alamy

Jim

The panel in that restored Mk V is not original by a long shot.

These two instruments are both modern digital displays. The one on the right replaces the original round Dowty landing gear position indicator and the one on the left I am not sure of but there are multiple digital displays that use that format of case. I SUSPECT this one is a modern radio frequency selector because the knob appears to have a front and rear sub knob. Someone who flys modern aircraft with digital comms can probably confirm that or come up with another possibility. My first thought was one of the many Dayton engine monitors but all those I am familiar with are for air cooled engines.

 

[gumbyk]

The panel in that restored Mk V is not original by a long shot.

These two instruments are both modern digital displays. The one on the right replaces the original round Dowty landing gear position indicator and the one on the left I am not sure of but there are multiple digital displays that use that format of case. I SUSPECT this one is a modern radio frequency selector because the knob appears to have a front and rear sub knob. Someone who flys modern aircraft with digital comms can probably confirm that or come up with another possibility. My first thought was one of the many Dayton engine monitors but all those I am familiar with are for air cooled engines.

View attachment 807508

It's the transponder. An older Micro-aire or Trig

 

[joemc]

One of the many reasons that a clock was fitted was for very basic navigation. Using the bat and ball in the basic six and turning for x seconds will give you y degrees direction change. LAter aircraft used fob watches that in many cases could be synchronised during pre take off briefings and were mounted in a rubber cup.

The old vacuum directional gyros were effected by precession so under read when turning one direction and over read while turning the opposite.

The four different clocks fitted to the Mk VC (and VIII) are shown below. I would expect the VA and VB, and other marks of the day to use the same clocks.

If you go to Smiths jaeger mk3b there is a discussion on the aircraft types which use the Mk IIIB. Hudson and Beaufort for certain and possibly/probably other Coastal Command aircraft.

EDIT - the same thread has a simple description from one of Alan Hulme's books covering the differences between the various Mk III clocks and the RAF Ident numbers for each variant.

I personally doubt that the Mk IIIB was fitted to Spitfires as they were not capable of long flights whereas Coastal Command and bomber command aircraft would often start a flight before midnight and extend into the next day so it makes logical sense for the Mk IIIB being used on those aircraft. The small dial at the top of the clock is for recording elapsed time of the flight. To me there is no logical reason to fit a 24 hour clock to any aircraft that would never be operating past midnight.

View attachment 807507

Hi mate

Yes all makes sense I don't think fighter spitfires I'm pretty sure these were used on Photo reconnaissance spitfires, two rebuilders of pr spits say these were definitely used in them, not saying my one was though, kind regards as always and a great help.

 

[joemc]

Here's some photos of an original PR spitfire used by coastal command.