Um syscom, I have news for you the X-15 was still a plane. Yes it had a rocket engine and yes it was dropped from a B-52 but you know what it was still a plane. Therefore in that sense the SR-71 was not the only plane like you state.
Cold War Intercept
- Thread starter plan_D
- Start date
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
Yes it was a plane.
Then why the issue. You made it seem like it did not count because of those reasons you stated.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
everybody seems to be fixated on max speed how much flying time did lightning have at full power the 101 at full power consumed 85 gals per engine per minute for about 13 -18 minutes of flight time depending on number of tanks which is approx 300nm one way or 100nm in return mission including set up fo attack far too close to let an intruder approach particularly with stand off weapons
Very good point there pbfoot.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Here is some info on the Phoenix AIM-54C.
Range In excess of 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles, 184 km)
Speed In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph)
Guidance System Semi-active and active radar homing
Warheads Proximity fuse, high explosive
Warhead Weight 135 pounds (60.75 kg)
The speed is quite impressive. Almost Mach 5
Range In excess of 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles, 184 km)
Speed In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph)
Guidance System Semi-active and active radar homing
Warheads Proximity fuse, high explosive
Warhead Weight 135 pounds (60.75 kg)
The speed is quite impressive. Almost Mach 5
That is actually what I allways thought it was at about Mach 5.
- Thread starter
- #108
No it isn't, most sources count it as Mach 3. And the Lightning was aerodynamically superior to the F-14, no matter the era. The F-14 had a better weapons system.
And, no, that wasn't a good point. The F-101 was inferior to the Lightning as an interceptor. It would be left standing by the Lightning and it's only saving grace is the nuclear tipped missiles ...but they're unguided. And it can't even reach the altitude of the Bison.
The Phoenix would have to make up about five minutes on the Lightning because the F-14 would be that much slower. And high-flying, fast bombers don't exist anymore that's why the F-14 doesn't exist anymore nor does the Phoenix, it's a waste of money. But in the Cold War, they did exist and altitude was needed on top of climb rate, time from ground and speed. The U.S thought the U-2 was safe from interception until a Lightning bounced one at 80,000 feet - could the F-14 do that? No.
And, no, that wasn't a good point. The F-101 was inferior to the Lightning as an interceptor. It would be left standing by the Lightning and it's only saving grace is the nuclear tipped missiles ...but they're unguided. And it can't even reach the altitude of the Bison.
The Phoenix would have to make up about five minutes on the Lightning because the F-14 would be that much slower. And high-flying, fast bombers don't exist anymore that's why the F-14 doesn't exist anymore nor does the Phoenix, it's a waste of money. But in the Cold War, they did exist and altitude was needed on top of climb rate, time from ground and speed. The U.S thought the U-2 was safe from interception until a Lightning bounced one at 80,000 feet - could the F-14 do that? No.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
"Skyflash is a medium-range radar-guided air-to-air missile. Designed to operate in severe electronic countermeasures conditions"
Range 28 miles ( 45 km )
Speed Mach 4
Propulsion One Aerojet Mk52 Mod 2 or
Rocketdyne Mk38 Mod 4 solid-propellant rocket motor
Guidance Marconi XJ521 monopulse Semi-Active Radar Homing
Warhead 87 lb ( 39.5-kg ) HE fragmentation with contact, delay action fuses.
Launch Weight 425 pounds ( 192.8 kg )
Id say the Phoenix system was superior to the Skyflash in long range intercepts. It was faster, far bigger warhead and far more range. The F14 could also carry six of them, as opposed to two skyflash's for the Lightning.
Range 28 miles ( 45 km )
Speed Mach 4
Propulsion One Aerojet Mk52 Mod 2 or
Rocketdyne Mk38 Mod 4 solid-propellant rocket motor
Guidance Marconi XJ521 monopulse Semi-Active Radar Homing
Warhead 87 lb ( 39.5-kg ) HE fragmentation with contact, delay action fuses.
Launch Weight 425 pounds ( 192.8 kg )
Id say the Phoenix system was superior to the Skyflash in long range intercepts. It was faster, far bigger warhead and far more range. The F14 could also carry six of them, as opposed to two skyflash's for the Lightning.
- Thread starter
- #110
The Lightning never carried the Skyflash - the Skyflash was at less risk from being jammed, it was superior technology to the Phoenix. The AIM-54 was too expensive, and that long-range gave it much longer to become confused due to background clutter and jamming. The F-14 also had to stay there until the missile reached a 10 mile range to the target, then it would take over itself.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
plan_D said:
The F14 still exists.
And I do agree with you the F101 was inferior to the Lightning.
- Thread starter
- #112
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Im gonna be the Patriotic Canadian again and mention the Avero Arrow,
I know that it never saw combat, among alot of things it never did.
but lets take into consideration what the plane accomplished during its tests. what do we all think it would have been capable of?
Oh and I thought the F-14 was still being used on the carrier, it was just being slowly fazed out by the Superhornet
Pbfoot youve sobered up quite nicely since your previous post eh?
I know that it never saw combat, among alot of things it never did.
but lets take into consideration what the plane accomplished during its tests. what do we all think it would have been capable of?
Oh and I thought the F-14 was still being used on the carrier, it was just being slowly fazed out by the Superhornet
Pbfoot youve sobered up quite nicely since your previous post eh?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
102first_hussars said:Im gonna be the Patriotic Canadian again and mention the Avero Arrow,
I know that it never saw combat, among alot of things it never did.
but lets take into consideration what the plane accomplished during its tests. what do we all think it would have been capable of?
Oh and I thought the F-14 was still being used on the carrier, it was just being slowly fazed out by the Superhornet
Pbfoot youve sobered up quite nicely since your previous post eh?
The Arrow would of been a very capable "heavy" interceptor killing Soviet Bombers with ease. It would of been fast and effective against such targets and might of found room as a light tactical nuclear bomber, such as the F-105, but as an air-to-air fighter, it would of been lunch for more maneuverable aircraft. I would put it close to the Lightning, F-4, F-106 or the F-14, but you're looking at "would of, should of, could of" and the only person who could be blamed for that was Diefenbaker....
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Yep, the plan for the Arrow was not just a intercepter, it would have been able to carry short range nuke missiles from high altitudes. I heard that Avro Canada improved the guidance system on the sparrow air-air missile is that true?
Nonskimmer
Captain
I'd read somewhere that they had been working on a Sparrow II that was cancelled along with the plane. It was just a vague reference though, and didn't give a lot of detail. Hmmm. 
Here is why the F-14 is the best interceptor there is. And dont tell me the Lightning can do this, cuz it cant, and dont tell me all this would not matter because the Lightning would fly around and hit all the targets before the Tomcat could even track them. The Lightning never had these capabilites that the Tomcat does.
The F-14 can track up to 24 targets simultaneously with its advanced weapons control system and attack six with Phoenix AIM-54A missiles while continuing to scan the airspace.
Overall, the Navy's Grumman F-14 Tomcat is without equal among today's Free World fighters. Six long-range AIM-54A Phoenix missiles can be guided against six separate threat aircraft at long range by the F-14's AWG-9 weapons control system.
The cockpit is fitted with a Kaiser AN/AVG-12 Head-Up Display (HUD) co-located with an AN/AVA-12 vertical situation display and a horizontal situation display. A Northrop AN/AXX-1 Television Camera Set (TCS) is used for visual target identification at long ranges. Mounted on a chin pod, the TCS is a high resolution closed circuit television system with two cockpit selectable Fields Of View (FOV), wide and narrow. The selected FOV is displayed in the cockpit and can be recorded by the Cockpit Television System. A new TCS, in development, will be installed in all three series aircraft. Electronic Support Measures (ESM) equipment include the Litton AN/ALR-45 radar warning and control system, the Magnavox AN/ALR-50 radar warning receiver, Tracor AN/ALE-29/-39 chaff/flare dispensers (fitted in the rear fuselage between the fins), and Sanders AN/ALQ-100 deception jamming pod.
All this taken from: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-14.htm
Oh and by the way unlike the Lightning, the Tomcat has actual combat intercepts. (If I am wrong and the lightning has ever intercepted anything but the Concorde, please correct me)
an E-2C of the VAW-124 detected two Libyan fighters taking off from the Ghurdabiya-Sirte AB, and moving north at high speed. Two Tomcats - actually belonging to two different CAP-pairs - were sent to intercept, in what was expected to be an exact copy of similar events from the previous day. However, shortly before the two formations passed by each other, the lead Libyan Su-22 apparently fired a K-13M missile towards the lead Tomcat. A controversy developed subsequently if the Libyan indeed fired a missile, or jettisoned a tank, which then - due to the fuel streaming out of it - looked like a missile, but the USN pilots were not to stop the Libyans and ask any questions. As the Sukhois flashed by, both Tomcats turned hard port, reached favorable positions and started to fire AIM-9L Sidewinders. The Libyan leader was shot down by the Tomcat wingman, the "Fast Eagle 102", and the Libyan wingman was shot down by the leader of the US formation and CO VF-41, Lt.Cdr. Henry Kleeman, which flew as "Fast Eagle 107". Both Libyan pilots ejected, and were apparently recovered by Libyan rescue teams.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_356.shtml
The F-14 can track up to 24 targets simultaneously with its advanced weapons control system and attack six with Phoenix AIM-54A missiles while continuing to scan the airspace.
Overall, the Navy's Grumman F-14 Tomcat is without equal among today's Free World fighters. Six long-range AIM-54A Phoenix missiles can be guided against six separate threat aircraft at long range by the F-14's AWG-9 weapons control system.
The cockpit is fitted with a Kaiser AN/AVG-12 Head-Up Display (HUD) co-located with an AN/AVA-12 vertical situation display and a horizontal situation display. A Northrop AN/AXX-1 Television Camera Set (TCS) is used for visual target identification at long ranges. Mounted on a chin pod, the TCS is a high resolution closed circuit television system with two cockpit selectable Fields Of View (FOV), wide and narrow. The selected FOV is displayed in the cockpit and can be recorded by the Cockpit Television System. A new TCS, in development, will be installed in all three series aircraft. Electronic Support Measures (ESM) equipment include the Litton AN/ALR-45 radar warning and control system, the Magnavox AN/ALR-50 radar warning receiver, Tracor AN/ALE-29/-39 chaff/flare dispensers (fitted in the rear fuselage between the fins), and Sanders AN/ALQ-100 deception jamming pod.
All this taken from: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-14.htm
Oh and by the way unlike the Lightning, the Tomcat has actual combat intercepts. (If I am wrong and the lightning has ever intercepted anything but the Concorde, please correct me)
an E-2C of the VAW-124 detected two Libyan fighters taking off from the Ghurdabiya-Sirte AB, and moving north at high speed. Two Tomcats - actually belonging to two different CAP-pairs - were sent to intercept, in what was expected to be an exact copy of similar events from the previous day. However, shortly before the two formations passed by each other, the lead Libyan Su-22 apparently fired a K-13M missile towards the lead Tomcat. A controversy developed subsequently if the Libyan indeed fired a missile, or jettisoned a tank, which then - due to the fuel streaming out of it - looked like a missile, but the USN pilots were not to stop the Libyans and ask any questions. As the Sukhois flashed by, both Tomcats turned hard port, reached favorable positions and started to fire AIM-9L Sidewinders. The Libyan leader was shot down by the Tomcat wingman, the "Fast Eagle 102", and the Libyan wingman was shot down by the leader of the US formation and CO VF-41, Lt.Cdr. Henry Kleeman, which flew as "Fast Eagle 107". Both Libyan pilots ejected, and were apparently recovered by Libyan rescue teams.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_356.shtml
Nice post Alder.
evangilder
"Shooter"
plan_D said:
Ummm, I have never heard about a Lightning bouncing a U-2 at 80,000 feet. Do you have some source material for this?
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Well either way it sure as hell wasnt safe from SAM's
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