Comparative Study of B-17 vs B-24

[drgondog]

1943
ETO(B-17/B-24) - MTO(B-17/B-24)

Jan 175/39 - 118/81
Feb 186/69 - 142/65
Mar 502/74 - 167/87
Apr 229/88 - 195/106
May 599/93 - 229/107
Jun 783/51 - 269/192
Jul 820/24 - 314/230
Aug 786/109 - 338/115
Sep 835/96 - 313/204
Oct 907/197 - 298/118
Nov 1166/294 - 268/115
Dec 1302/308 - 289/268

Milosh - You can see how lopsided the B-17 to B-24 ratio was for the 8th through March 1944.

I wonder which B-24 BG's the count shows for B-24s from May though August when all the combat groups (44, 93 and 389) went to Africa for Tidal Wave. The last 8th AF B-24 combat sortie (bombing) was 39 out on May 17 and 34 effectives, then 22 effectives on 7 September after they returned - so none of the Mid May through August B-24 count for 8th AF was flying combat sorties in that period.

It is conceivable some had arrived to start training for the ETO but I would have to check (392, 444, 446 and 448??)

 

[Milosh]

Not sure how much this helps.

15th AIR FORCE ORGANIZATIONAL CHART AS OF OCTOBER 1944

Frank Ambrose, Gloversville, NY and 781st Bomb Sqd. 465th Bomb Group in Italy

 

[jimh]

Thats a great tree Milosh...I'd love to see that for the 8th..1st, 2nd and 3rd air divisions.

jim

 

[drgondog]

Thats a great tree Milosh...I'd love to see that for the 8th..1st, 2nd and 3rd air divisions.

jim

Lol - Jim I can almost build that from memory..

Roger Freeman has a pretty good cut in the Mighty Eighth series.

 

[Milosh]

Not what you are looking for Jim but I found it interesting,

Not a tree Jim as for the 15th AF, 8th AF

 

[Milosh]

Fold3 Viewer

Interesting link for modelers. Open the film strip and scrolling right will give you dimensions for the unit markings

 

[fubar57]

Dang...dead link Milosh, "Unexpected Error"

 

[XBe02Drvr]

If Consolidated had accepted to build the B17 under Boeing licence, at the place of the 20.261 Liberators built ( VS 12.700 B17s from Boeing) they could build the same number of Flying Fortresses

Digging through old threads, I came across this gem and couldn't resist throwing in my $.02.
This comment had to have come from someone who's never looked at these two aircraft up close and personal.
I'm an aircraft mechanic by training and have done my share of sheet metal work, and have also worked in a manufacturing plant (aircraft weapons, not airframes) and have some grasp of the processes involved. I'm convinced a plant capable of producing 20K Liberators could NOT turn around and crank out the same number of Fortresses in the same amount of time. Structurally, the Lib looks like it was designed for ease and speed of construction. The sheet metal parts are large and simple, with a minimum of fussy details, and the main spar is a simple sheet metal box. The Fort, on the other hand, comes from an earlier generation in the evolution of large all metal monoplanes, and is full of little complexities, forgings, castings and a built up main spar fabricated of heavy sheet metal box members riveted together to form a truss. Hell for stout, but not cheap, quick, or easy to build. I betcha the structural parts count for a B-17 airframe is near twice what it is for a 24. Those with GA experience can relate to this. The B-24 is built like a Cherokee/Saratoga/Seneca, the B-17 like a Beech 18.
I got the privilege of making these observations onederful day when Collings was in town, and I got to turn a wrench on both birds, and then ride in them both.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[soulezoo]

Having wrenched on both myself (once on the Memphis Belle- movie version- helping put a wing back on) I have to agree with Wes above. I did not, however, get to ride in either.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Having wrenched on both myself (once on the Memphis Belle- movie version- helping put a wing back on) I have to agree with Wes above. I did not, however, get to ride in either.

I lucked out, and was able to bail the Collings people out of a problem they they were having. They were on the phone trying to arrange an overnight parts delivery to a small local airport prior to 10AM when I came in from my morning UPS feeder flight. They were having no luck with FedEx or UPS, as neither could guarantee that timing. I had them address their package to me, UPS, care of the local FBO, and told them to meet me in BTV next morning at 0730. Next morning I spotted their package as I was loading my plane in MHT and strapped it into the empty copilot's seat. When I landed in BTV, there was a B-24 waiting for me on the ramp, and the UPS guys scanned my package and handed it to me on the spot. The Collings folks were on the phone negotiating for a mechanic to go over to the other field and install the part. I told them I was a mechanic and they asked if I wanted to go for a ride. Did I ever! So I got to install an oil distribution pump in the port landing gear well of the B-24 WHILE STILL IN MY PILOT UNIFORM. No grunge clothes to change into.
The only mechanic they had with them was their chief pilot, who was an AI, but he was stretched thin with crowd control, safety issues, lectures, and publicity stuff, and barely had time to inspect and sign off my work. I then participated in a daily inspection of the B-17, changed a couple lamps, and opened up a compartment to retrieve a ratchet wrench that somebody had lost at some previous time. By then it was time for them to takeoff for BTV, and I needed to get back for my evening UPS flight, so I rode back in the B-17 with "genuine Liberator blood" splattered on my uniform. One of the best days of my life.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[mcoffee]

Loss rate per sortie data for 8th AF B-17's and B-24's by Bomb Group. This is the work of Sam McGowan.

And a couple of photos of a "fragile" 15th AF B-24.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

And a couple of photos of a "fragile" 15th AF B-24.
View attachment 511265 View attachment 511266

Good thing that shell didn't hit 20 feet forward. The whole area above the wing center section is one huge fuel tank with the main spar running right through it.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[BiffF15]

Just went to the National WW2 Museum in NOLA yesterday. They had the nose section of an earlier B-24 but for the life of me I could not see how someone got to the gunner / bombardier position. Anyone have the answer?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[mcoffee]

Normal entry was through the nose wheel well, but there was a tunnel under the flight deck to the bomb bay

 

[BiffF15]

Normal entry was through the nose wheel well, but there was a tunnel under the flight deck to the bomb bay

Great and thanks! There was nothing visible by looking in as to how someone got in. I would guess if he needed to bailout he would have to traverse the tunnel?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Milosh]

Great and thanks! There was nothing visible by looking in as to how someone got in. I would guess if he needed to bailout he would have to traverse the tunnel?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Milosh]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Are you still in Nola? Maybe be we can meet up for a beer.

 

[BiffF15]

Are you still in Nola? Maybe be we can meet up for a beer.

DerAdler,

I left yesterday AM to fly to EWR then on to JAX. Great museum, really enjoyed it!

Cheers,
Biff

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Too bad. Would have loved to have bought you a beer.