Could a Lancaster bomber perform a barrel loop?

[pbfoot]

If the Lancaster was 'tossed' onto its back by a shell, it could have provided just the momentum the pilot needed to keep going through the roll until he was right-way up again. I can't see a bombed-up Lancaster pulling off a roll in the normal aerobatic manner.

An all up weight Lanc no but a Lanc after dumping its load and beimg light on fuel why not

 

[Colin1]

An all up weight Lanc no but a Lanc after dumping its load and beimg light on fuel why not

I'm not disagreeing with you
but in the case of this particular Lancaster, it was loaded up; it might be convenient to think that the exploding shell gave it the push-start into the manoeuvre that it needed but I can't think of anything else that might have gotten it through to the other side of the roll.

The question of 'why not' is largely irrelevant, it was done by Alex Henshaw but even with the feat confirmed we might be missing a big point here - what use was it to a 4-engined heavy? Physics tells me that a fully aerobatic Lancaster or B-17 is not going to shake a Fw190 off its tail.

 

[pbfoot]

I'm not disagreeing with you
but in the case of this particular Lancaster, it was loaded up; it might be convenient to think that the exploding shell gave it the push-start into the manoeuvre that it needed but I can't think of anything else that might have gotten it through to the other side of the roll.

The question of 'why not' is largely irrelevant, it was done by Alex Henshaw but even with the feat confirmed we might be missing a big point here - what use was it to a 4-engined heavy? Physics tells me that a fully aerobatic Lancaster or B-17 is not going to shake a Fw190 off its tail.

I agree that the Lanc or 17 are not aerobatic birds , but I've read of one pilot flying the maritime version in the RCAF that used to roll it occasionally just to keep the crew awake

 

[MickMcM]

Hope this doesn't sound too far fetched – well it probably does – but I'll run it past you anyway: My intention is to have the Lancaster dive for cover into a storm cloud (to hide) followed by the FW-190. The Lanc. immediately climbs to loop back up and over the chasing fighter, getting behind it so that when they eventually appear out of cloud cover the nose turret will shoot down the FW-190 now ahead of them. To compensate for the speed differential between the two aircraft – the fighter getting too far ahead – my reasoning is the fighter would throttle back to avoid colliding with the bomber (apparently, ahead of him). Also of course he mustn't deviate from the bearing he entered the cloud at.

May sound ridiculous to you guys who know a lot more about these things than I do, but bear in mind, that since your average film-goer won't possess anything like your knowledge, they will more than likely accept what they see. Also, it is precisely, because the pilot is an arrogant S.O.B., risk-taker, that rather than escape by using the cloud cover he wants to down the enemy fighter. Too incredible... I'm hoping not.

As an acceptable alternative, it may be to have the Lanc. simply bank in the tightest possible curving turn to enable it to get behind the fighter. Not sure what you call this manoeuvre.

 

[Marcel]

Hope this doesn't sound too far fetched – well it probably does – but I'll run it past you anyway: My intention is to have the Lancaster dive for cover into a storm cloud (to hide) followed by the FW-190. The Lanc. immediately climbs to loop back up and over the chasing fighter, getting behind it so that when they eventually appear out of cloud cover the nose turret will shoot down the FW-190 now ahead of them. To compensate for the speed differential between the two aircraft – the fighter getting too far ahead – my reasoning is the fighter would throttle back to avoid colliding with the bomber (apparently, ahead of him). Also of course he mustn't deviate from the bearing he entered the cloud at.

May sound ridiculous to you guys who know a lot more about these things than I do, but bear in mind, that since your average film-goer won't possess anything like your knowledge, they will more than likely accept what they see. Also, it is precisely, because the pilot is an arrogant S.O.B., risk-taker, that rather than escape by using the cloud cover he wants to down the enemy fighter. Too incredible... I'm hoping not.

As an acceptable alternative, it may be to have the Lanc. simply bank in the tightest possible curving turn to enable it to get behind the fighter. Not sure what you call this manoeuvre.

It's called a break and is a good option for your story.
The dive is a good one, as I believe the merlins of a Lanc wouldn't be powerful enough for it to climb to the top of the loop. The dive would give it more speed. I still believe the a/c would stall before being at the highest point and then just simply fall from the sky. Maybe try a stall-turn for your Lanc? This would mean the lanc would try to climb steeply, going vertical until airspeed would be gone (in the case of the Lanc it would be quickly). Then the pilot would kick the ruder to let the nose fall sideways, letting the a/c dive again, pick up speed doing so. Therear gunner would waste the FW190. It's still a highly un-recommended manoeuvre, though.

 

[MickMcM]

Marcel
I'm going to go with the "break". Could you possibly help me with the controls used? Hazarding an educated guess here, but I imagine ailerons (control stick) + increased/full throttle + rudder (foot pedals). Any other controls? Has his flight engineer got any direct involvement here?

And as the pilot will need to return to the same heading, he will therefore need to have confirmed his compass heading before executing the manoeuvre?

Am I missing anything with which to make it more authentic?

Thanks, Mick

 

[Marcel]

The break will only work if the fighter can't see that the Lanc is performing the manoeuvre, (the FW190 can of course turn much tighter), so the bomber should be in the cloud. In order to break, the pilot will have to pull back on the stick quite heavily (after banking first). There are some pilots here on the forum who probably have performed the manoeuvre of breaking (but not in a Lanc )They'll probably can tell you the details.

 

[MickMcM]

Thanks for coming back on this, Marcel. But just to be clear, banking involves the side-to-side movement of the joystick? I would want to show this detail to the audience...

 

[trackend]

Ok having been to Duxford over the weekend I spoke with Phil Gray a Lanc pilot from 44-45 he said yes you can roll a Lanc and barrel rolls were only done by test pilots in unladen aircraft the staight roll put less strain on the airframe than the classic cork screw for avoiding enemy and the crew hated doing them as it threw them about a hell of alot not knowing at what point the change of direction was going to occure. so I was wrong in saying no, I'll go with a guy who flew the Lancs.

 

[MickMcM]

Trackend
Thanks for this. Quite so – if anyone would know, someone who flew the thing in combat should ! I think I'll take myself off to Duxford one of these days...

 

[timshatz]

Hey Mick, back after a weekend of fun and games.

I read your previous post and doing an Immelman (loop) to get on the tail of the fighter will make the people in the seats go "oh-ah", provided they know nothing about airplanes. Somebody who does will roll their eyes and think "Hollywood is at it again". Like the movie Flyboys. Great premiss, but they screwed it up royally.

Let's go with the idea the Lanc can loop and stay in one piece. He dives for cover in the clouds and loops after the fighter. The fighter is going to be moving a lot faster then the bomber so even if he does loop, he's still way behind. An alternate suggestion would be a barrel roll. It is also a roll but instead of rolling on a fixed axis (like the center of a wheel) he would roll along the outside of the circle (the tread of the tire). In manuver terms, it is very good at slowing down and displacing the aircraft to the outside of the line of flight. The 190 would still blow past, but a barrell rolling Lanc (again, going wth a lot of artistic liscense) would slide in behind him for a very short time (as he is still going faster than the bomber by far). The loop puts to much time and space between the two aircraft for a slower aircraft to realistically catch the faster aircraft.

A barrel roll would me more realistic than a loop.

 

[MickMcM]

Tim, hope the fun and games were good!

Yes this is precisely what I want to avoid – that tired old Hollywood thing of exaggeration for maximum dramatic effect. Forgetting the cloud scenario for the moment I think it was you who might have commented on our Lanc. suddenly cutting speed so that the fighter overshoots and the bomber's dorsal turret gets a shot at it. What would that involve, precisely?

 

[MickMcM]

Sorry 'pb' it was you who referred to this tactic...

His favourite tactic was to drop everything from gear to flaps cut power and hope the guy overshot

.

Mick

 

[RabidAlien]

At the moment I'm just trying to familiarise myself with flight dynamics – control surfaces and such. Conversing with people like you, it strikes me how deeply ignorant I am even about the basics. Meanwhile, a friend of mine was (hopefully, still is) going out with an RAF pilot who flies Hercules into Kandahar so I'm going to run some ideas past him if I can.

Heh. Welcome to the club! Walk away from the guy who says he knows everything. He's an idiot.

If you want either maneuver to work where he slips nicely up behind the 190, the 190 will have to enter the clouds waaaaay behind the Lanc. Its kinda like a dumptruck making a loop around the block to fall in nicely behind a Porsche.

You might also have the crew quietly conversing in hushed, awed tones the events that just took place, followed by a cockily jubilant pilot slithering out the cockpit hatch only to meet the rather pissed-off looking squadron/division CO (maybe Hap Arnold and Jimmy Doolittle, too, just for fun!) ready to chew his grits for pulling "such a dam-fool stunt you cocky SOB!". Having him grounded for a day or two in "punishment", after which the CO buys the first round at the bar, should set a good tone too.

Don't mean to write your scenario for you...its slow at work today (which is a good thing! All my PC's and servers are working!), and I'm bored.

 

[timshatz]

Rabid has it right. The Lanc is way too slow and unwieldy.

The clouds actually could help. Depending on when you have the raid happen, clouds on a full moon night are pretty bright. There was a raid in 1944 where the Brits lost 100+ bombers because they went out on a full moon (evidently, the usually didn't do that sort of thing). Here is a link to a good book on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nuremberg_Raid_(book)


Then, playing cat and mouse with a 190 becomes more viable. The 190 could pick him up over the target as a Wild Boar attack and stick with him.

But still, the loop is right out. Unless you want to lose cred. In reality, the barrel roll is a long shot too. But more credible than a loop. But Rabid's Dumptruck/Porsche analogy is very good. Keep it in mind when thinking of options.

 

[MickMcM]

Thanks to everyone for all excellent contributions on this post
After all the comments from members like yourself, RA and Tim, I'm dumping the scenario with loops/barrel rolls and going to stick to something more tied into reality. Actually, an important element in this story is his ability in low-flying situations so I'm working this into these first scenes. Got to get something down on paper!

What would help right now is suggestions for bomber pilot memoirs/biography's – obviously from/about RAF pilot's preferably.

Mick

 

[timshatz]

Mick, that's a tricky one, believe it or not. Books on Bomber Command only started comming to the US in the last couple of decades. Before that, there was some oddity about publishing rights that screwed everything up. The guys in England would have a better line on it than anything I know of.

Low level is a pretty good idea. There are a lot of stories about pilots going under wires, front gunners duking it out with AAA emplacements, even one case of a B17 flying sideways between two buildings in Germany on it's way home. Ton of stuff like that.

Bomber Command was a very hard place to finish a tour. There were points during the war when flying in a British Heavy bomber had a lower chance of survival than a Junior Infantry officer on the Somme in 1916. Statistically, I think the worst spot in a bomber was the tail gunner.

 

[Geedee]

Some good ideas here guys. I'm surprised no-ones mentioned anything along the lines of Mav / Goose in TopGun hitting the brakes.

Ok, Ok, I know the Lanc doesn't have airbrakes....but...what about dropping the undecrart and throttling right back at the same time. Problems here are I dont know the undercart limiting speed (maybe the pilot knows his Lanc better than the designers ?) and I dont know how long it would take to cycle and start to effect forward airspeed. Would opening the bomb doors also apply drag ?

Working on the assumption that the dude in the 190 is using his superior speed to attack from behind and in a slight dive to assist, maybe he would not see the undercart starting to drop and with the engines throttled right back at th same time, his overtake speed would be considerably higher than the Lanc. In this situation the 190 driver is probably soooo p*ssed at having his intercept thrown back in his face, he would maybe not think too much about the best avoiding action to miss the Lanc, presenting the gunners with ample opportunity to pepper the 190 or at least damage it enough to cause the the 190 to break away and smoke home.

This scenario would give ample opportunity for further drama in the Lanc cockpit as the airspeed drops off too fast / dangerously low and the plane starts to waffle down in a partial stall. Cue frantic throttle shoving and lots of sweaty eyebrows interspersed with a suitable dramatic dialogue....no, I dont mean like the Carling Black jokes.... 'She's going in, I cant hold her' etc etc. All this at low level and finishing with the Lancs props tips almost in the wave tops before she sluggishly starts to respond to her frantic (read cocky!) pilots control inputs.

Something else to consider is at what angle are the 190's guns setup..ie, what angle above the fuselague datum line ?, so that the 190 has to fly slightly lower than his intended prey to bring hios guns to bear ?

Only a thought

 

[Geedee]

You could also include a bit about damage to the hydraulics (unknown by the crew at this point !) so that when the undercart is cycled, it drops down faster than normal, but in the best tradition, manages to lock in place. the Lanc then has to contend with a long trip back with everything dangling, forcing the engines to run harder to stay up ...queue overheating, lots of smoke, maybe flames, shutting down at least one Merlin, fighting the assymetric drag, slowing down all the while and getting nearer to the Channel waves. Managing to find a 'dip' in the cliffs that she just manages to heave herself over...maybe even rolling the wheels on the grass and trundling up a slight incline to gain a few vital feet of altitude. All the time now the crew are chucking everything overboard to lighten the load.


Phew....I'm off for swift pint !

 

[Pong]

A Lancaster doing a barrel roll? That would be amazing to see. I remember in a documentary a Lancaster crewmember notes that the pilot did a series of aerobatic maneuvers if a German night fighter was on their tail.