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Just to answer the original question: no!
OK Daniel, perhaps you can explain how the Allies can wage war against Japan Germany with shipping losses 2, 3 or 4 times as severe as happened?
With a complete lack of ASW escorts the shipping losses will continue to mount, until the offensive effort grinds to a halt.
And don't think that "They can just build more ships" - they can't. Allied shipbuilding capacity is about 1.2 million tons/month MAXIMUM, even with a severe shortage they were not able to push this higher. With the German U-boat effort at less than 50%, and the Japanese at perhaps 25%, the U-subs were able to sink 600,000 - 650,000 in several months, the best month was over 800,000 tons BY SUBS ALONE. Add to this sinkings by Axis aircraft, mines, accident, weather etc. Now consider if both Germany and Japan devoted 100% resources to sink Allies shipping right from 1941 then they could EASILY account for 1.5 - 2.5 million tons PER MONTH! The shipping "import crisis" will begin not in mid 1943, but will be in the spring of 1942.
THE ALLIES CANNOT FIGHT THE WAR WITHOUT SHIPPING!!!
Taking into consideration the lack of depth in the German and Japanese war economy, oil&rubber supply and their other military goals it is impossible that they could have substained their other war efforts had such a shipbuilding programme been made. Moreover the brittish transportfleet alone was at 18 million tons at the start of the war - and capable of producing 1 million more every year (all this is excluding the US which had an even larger stock capacity - Wages of Destruction, p.398 )).
Got this off some BB somewhere, sometime.
British merchant ship construction capacity from 1939-1941 did not exceed 1.2 million GRT per year.
US merchant ship construction in 1939 was 0.242 million GRT.
British controlled merchant shipping over 1,600 GRT (number/in thousands of gross tons)
3Sep39 2,999/17,784
30Sep40 3,75721,373
30Sep41 3,608/20,552
31Dec41 3,616/20,693
Even if a sinking ratio of 600.000 tons a month was reached by the Germans (Doenitz original goal) it would be some time before britains merchant tonnage would reach critical level.
The Americans controlled a further 12 million tons of shipping at the beginning of the war, but this was pretty stretched as well, due to the losses that had been sustained by the british in the period 1939-42. in short there was very little fat left on the bone when the US entered the war.
hi daniel
What is being proposed here is not an increased output of u-boats/I-boats, rather a re-ordering of priorities, and a change in operational status. For the germans, there were massive diversions of U-Boats to the Med and the Arctic. If these boats had been diverted to the Atlantic, as donitz had wanted, ther would have been a significant increase in tonnage losses, for no additional economic cost to Germany.
In the case of the Japanese, the change would have reequired some change in strategic thinking, that is admittedly difficult to justify. However, there were constant recommendations from the Japanese submarine commaqnders to switch to a mercantile warfare strategy, similar to the german employment. These wre consistently overruled by the Japanese High command, so the resistance to the change in strategy was coming from the top, and not the operational commanders.
If you add the additional 65 I-Boats, and the additional 80 U-Boats to the battle in 1942, the equation starts to look quite different.
To maintain the british economy at subsistence level, the british calculated that they needed a minimum of 7 million tons of shipping. however, the british also had other worldwide committments, to her overseas empire , the neutrals and the dominions. For Australia alone, the committment of shipping was about 2 million tons. Without this committment of shipping, the economic benefits of Australia, who provided the lions share of wheat to feed india, and wool for various military purposes, would have been lost, and Australia would have faced economic ruin within a year. there were similar committments allover the world that had to be met or the grand allianc being forged by the british at the time would have surely failed, as well as very real economic ruin for many members of the United Nations.
I have a book "British shipping in WWII" SG Sturmey Athlone Press 1962. In this book, it discusses this issue in a fair amount of detail. To maintain Britains worldwide committments, Sturmey estimetes a minimum need of not less than 15 million tons. Thats exclusive of any military needs. So when you talk about 18 million tons, and suggest that this represented a comfortable margin for losses, i have to strongly disagree. Allied shipping in 1942 was in very short supply, and every loss was being keenly felt. The needs of operation Torch, for example, caused a reduction in strategic oil reserves in England, such that these reserves were down to about 3 months supply by the beginning of 1943. So the margin for losses was very tight indeed. any significant increase in losses over historical levels was going to have a drastic effect on operations everywhere. The loss of an additional 1 million tons, for example, would have precluded any landings into North Africa, and would have also severely affected the buildup for Alamein 9which demanded the diversion of some 800 merchantmen totalling well in excess of 3.2 million tons of shipping).
It is also important to keep in perspective the actual production of shipping in this period. In 1942, the year we are looking at, the US produced 5.5 million tons, the british 1.3 million, and "others" 0.7 million tons, for a total of 7.5 million tons. The Americans controlled a further 12 million tons of shipping at the beginning of the war, but this was pretty stretched as well, due to the losses that had been sustained by the british in the period 1939-42. in short there was very little fat left on the bone when the US entered the war.
From december 1941 through to June 1942, 4.7 million tons. I have estimated, that with U-Boats diverted from the tactical theatres, and the IJN committed to the tonnage battle, these losses would have been basically tripled, to approximately 11 million tons. At 11-12 million tons, there would have been a nett deficit, compared to history of at least 7 million tons. This is not enough to knock out the allies, but it is enough to bring a complete halt to all offensive operations for at least a year, and would severely test the political resolve of the grand alliance. just as an example, the ability to import grain to India would have been severely strained. there were sever riots in Bengal in 1943 for this very reason (which explains why the Japanese chose to invade in 1944) with even less food availble, it is quite possible that india would have descended into chaos.
It is not possible to win the war by the u-Boats alon, however, the British could only defeat the Axis by the formation and maintenence of a worldwide grand alliance. The security of this grand alliance could be threatened by shipping losses, in the manner I have described. In addition, the loss of even quite small amount of merchant tonnages, brings offensive capability for the allies to a complete stop, probably for at least a year (but depending on the scale of losses). In that period, the Japanese and the germans gain vital breathing time....time to bring Russia to her knees, time to isolate and force the surrender of Australia, time to fortify the Japanese outer perimeter, , time to build the Atlantic wall, time to introduce jet technologies.
You are right to assert that the Allies commanded a massive economic advantage over the Axis. however , where they were not at an advantage, was in the area of manpower. if the offensives of 1942 had not progressed, and the Axis had gained some time with which to prepre more thoroughly, the manpower losses for the allies would have inevitable increased. This may well have been sufficient to force th allies to the negotiating table, which in the latter half of the war was the objective the axis needed to aim for.
The rate of attrition in the east was causing the Germans much more attrition than that which was or could have been inflicted on the western allies. Although a favorite subject for armchair generals the Germans could simply never have won the war in the east. Their manpower reserves where already fully commited in Barbarossa.
Since the point isn't an increase in u-boat production but an improved usage of those already available then I don't see any chance of the theoretical numbers flying around becoming reality. Mainly for two reasons
1. They assume that the allies do not react. Further sinkings would have increased/improved convoy defenses, research priority, production capacity etc...
2. They assume that the U-boats could have sunk the needed tonnage by early 43 at the latest. Production capacity and technology make it impossible for any ammount of U/I-Boats to make any difference beyond that time.
What could have been achieved by using the odd 80 extra u-boats and a better doctrine for the Japanese would certainly have caused the allies considerable hurt and delays. But not have altered the course of the war.
I was relying on the figures given in Janes for 1939. I dont know what US losses were for the period 1939-41, but I expect them to be not too high
usmm.org said:American Flag Ships 1939
American Flag ships in foreign trade or trade with U.S. possessions and territories [including Alaska and Hawaii] as of April 1939.
There are 492 ships on this official U.S. government list prepared by the U.S. Maritime Commission. If a ship is not on this list, but was an ocean-going ship, it was probably engaged only in coastwise voyages, for example, New York to New Orleans, or Seattle to Los Angeles.
The allies were in "shipping crisis" with the historical losses. if you double that, they are beyond that point....
The unkown so to speak is what can they do. Kings attitude to ASW was basically if he didnt think about shipping losses they would somehow just go away. The Americans were so wedded to the Mananian idea of the "decisve battle", that it was very difficult for them to re-adjust to the "small war" ideas that were needed to fight the Battle of the subs (cant call it Battle Of the Atlantic anymore). you saw Sys's reaction to my suggestion that capital ship copnstruction might need to be curtailed for a while to make room for merchantmen, and small ships. "Not a chance!!!!" was the reply, as I recall, rings like a quotation from Admiral Kings Diary.
Admiral King in the historical campaign let things slide until about March 1942, by which time US losses were running above the 2 million tons mark. I think the US reaction and eventual wake up to the fact that they could lose the war if they didnt do something was more linked to the tonnage losses rather than the date, so if our scenario sinks 3-4 million tons in the first month, the US is going to start to react more or less straight away
But its one thing to relaize that a big problem exists, and another to make effective countermeasures work. historically it was August before there was any effect from US countermeasures instituted in March, and in this hypothetical, the problem facing the Americans is much worse, with 80 boats attacking them in the Atlantic 9instead of an average of about 20), and say 30-40 Japanese Boats on the pacific Front. In every sense of the word, the US would be fighting a two front war for which it was neither doctrinally or materially equipped to deal with.
My opinion is that massive withdrawals would be required, from the Pacific and the Med. the US would need to allow the British to assist them, and probably place a british admiral with ASW experience to run the show for them.
The destroyers pulled back from the med, along with nearly all of the USN DDs, would need to be retrained and formed into escort groups, very quickly, to minimize losses, A Huge chunk from Bomber command would need to be re-assigned to a much enlarged Coastal Command, which would incorporate virtually all of the USAAAF assets (which at that time were being used to train the rapidly expanding Army and Navy air services. These would need to be re-trained, and equipped for a primarily ASW role, which has the unfortunate effect of delaying the big expansion, but cant be helped given the seriousness of the emergency.
With measures like these, the U-Boats could still be defeated by the middle of 1943. But a massive delay of perhaps a year has occurred in that time, with indeterminate consequences
you saw Sys's reaction to my suggestion that capital ship copnstruction might need to be curtailed for a while to make room for merchantmen, and small ships. "Not a chance!!!!"
1.) Certain US operations in the Pacific were reduced or delayed.
2.) The 1943 Burma offensive was weakened and ultimately failed
Its the truth. The shipyards with the hulls of the capital ships already substantially completed could not over night just stop production and rebuild them as destroyers. They would have finished them, launched them then begin building the escorts.
Same with the slips with carriers being built.
Building warships is a tad more complicated than making trucks or aircraft.
True. I would suspect that the Japanese would eventually come to capture Papua NG, but not much more. By summer of 1942, their logistics were in tatters from their rapid gains, and needed a breather to recover. But its irrelevant because in the summer of 1943, the US had the resources to begin a systematic offensive through the Central Pacific.
It didnt matter what happened in the CBI.
A point that might be overlooked was that up until 41 very few U boats had been sunk bt ASW aircraft I believe the number was 2 , but with a radar that was able to work at longer ranges the numbers began to increase rapidly , I believ the Happy Times were well over by late 41 with advent of a serious search radar that had range at lower altitudes
A point that might be overlooked was that up until 41 very few U boats had been sunk bt ASW aircraft I believe the number was 2 , but with a radar that was able to work at longer ranges the numbers began to increase rapidly , I believ the Happy Times were well over by late 41 with advent of a serious search radar that had range at lower altitudes