Czechs and Poles, what do you think of the Anti Missile System?

seesul said:

Yep, you´re right. Soviet Union has nothing to do with Munich´s dictat. My mistake. Italy was the 4th country that signed it.
Soviets threw us (and not only us) aboard 1 year later- in August ´39 when they signed Molotov-Ribentrop pact.
And if you speak about ´45- this year in fact started our living behind the iron curtain which I haven´t 4gotten and ignored...one occupation ended up just to allow to start the other occupation...that lasted more than 40 years...

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seesul, in the game of superpowers, the smalls allways looses. whats better example than poland in ww2 ? invaded 3 times: 1 by germany, 2 by soviets and the only country that allies declared war was germany.

the czech politicians should make the better for their people not for usa/nato or for russia. i cant see a situation wheres you have foreign weapons in your ground would bring some profit. turkey have missiles too. its makes turkey more important ? more stable ? more rich ? i dont know. cuba also almost had missiles in their ground but it didnt make them a better country by that. its all relative, but if you read machiavel, he have a good explanation about his point over a kingdon depends other kingdon´s forces to make their own security.

stasoid said:

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact dividing Poland was signed some 6 months after Czechoslovakia had been completely occupied by Germany where the Soviets hadn't been involved in any way.

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Hmmm...just wanted to say that although our country was already occupied by Germans our big friends signed the pact with Hitler.
Ok, if you really think Soviets had a right to let us be in 1938 and then stay here with their soldiers from 1945 till 1991, here´s one fact more:
- 1935 May 2. France concludes a treaty of mutual assistance with the Soviet Union
- May 16. Czechoslovakia signs a treaty of mutual assistance with the USSR, thereby joining the Franco - Soviet treaty


Treaty contents

Article 1
In the event that France or the U.S.S.R. are subjected to the threat or the danger of aggression on the part of a European state, the U.S.S.R. and France engage themselves reciprocally to proceed to an immediate mutual consultation on measures to take in order to observe the provisions of Article 10 of the League of Nations Pact.

Article 2
In the event that, in the circumstances described in Article 15, paragraph 7, of the League of Nations Pact, France or the U.S.S.R. may be, in spite of the genuinely pacific intentions of the two countries, and subject of unprovoked aggression on the part of a European state, the U.S.S.R. and France will immediately lend each other reciprocal aid and assistance.

Article 3
Taking into consideration the fact that, according to Article 16 of the League of Nations Pact, every member of the League that resorts to war contrary to the engagements assumed in Articles 12, 13 or 15 of the Pact is ipso facto considered as having committed an act of war against all the other members of the League, France and the U.S.S.R. engage themselves reciprocally, [should either of them be the object of unprovoked aggression], to lend immediate aid and assistance in activating the application of Article 16 of the Pact.
The same obligation is assumed in the even that either France or the U.S.S.R. is the object of aggression on the part of a European state in the circumstances described in Article 17, paragraphs 1 and 3, of the League of Nations Pact.

Protocole de Signature

Article 1
It is understood that the effect of Article 3 is to oblige each Contracting Party to lend immediate assistance to the other in conforming immediately to the recommendations of the Council of the League of Nations as soon as they are announced under Article 16 of the Pact. It equally understood that the two Contracting Parties will act in concert to elicit the recommendations of the Council with all the celerity that circumstances require and that, if nevertheless, the Council, for any reason whatever, does not make any recommendation or does not arrive at a unanimous decision, the obligation of assistance will nonetheless be implemented....

stasoid said:

I mean, 40 years is nothing in the long term. In 100 years noone will remember what iron curtain or socialist economy was...

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OK, if you really think that the only problem during those 40 years was the socialist economy, this could explain your opinion on this matter...
I was born in 1973 and the velvet revolution toke place in 1989 so I wasn´t affected by this period so much. But if you lived here in 50´s and 60´s, the times, when the human right was only a strange word, you would speak another way. The times of political processes with the innocent people, which were executed, the times, when your children and relatives couldn´t get a good job or to go in a good school only because you didn´t join the communist party, the time, when former gestapo confidents used to work for a new pro-Russian goverment and had a power, a real power, the time, when the former Czech WW2 vets from the west front were jailed, interrogated, tortured and sometime also killed, only because their fought against Nazis with West Allies...that was reality that was here for these 40 years...
You should tell your interesting opinion to my father that enjoyed this period for all these 40 years...or better you should speak to the political prisoners or their family members...

BTW, in my born town used to live one WW2 Czech vet, a pilot. He served in France, Great Britain and even in Russia. Real hero with more than 10 kills.
His fortune? They threw him away from Czech Airforce in 1947, he never got a good job, he was getting only a small amount of money for all the rest of his life so he better moved to my born town where he was unknown for all the people there. By the time the people got to know him and he became our secret hero. He wasn´t allowed to speak about his experience. Unfortunately he died too soon, in 1990, few months after the velvet revolution. I spoke to him several times and since that time I hate both nacists and communists. I just wasn´t able to get over the fact, that such a hero, that fought for our freedom so many years, was a dirty duster for his OWN HOMELAND!
If you´re interested, more here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/s-ldr-josef-stehl-k-four-airforces-1603.html

Ramirezzz said:

I too believe that the equalisation of the 50 years of communist rule in Czechoslovakia and German occupation on the other side would be a great exaggeration, despite all oppression occurred.

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Yep, I really can´t compare those 2 periods, I agree.
But the fact is, that Czechoslovakia was sovereign country only once in the future...since October 28,1918 till March 15,1939. And now, for a second time, since November 17,1989...

JugBR said:

seesul, in the game of superpowers, the smalls allways looses. whats better example than poland in ww2 ? invaded 3 times: 1 by germany, 2 by soviets and the only country that allies declared war was germany.

the czech politicians should make the better for their people not for usa/nato or for russia. i cant see a situation wheres you have foreign weapons in your ground would bring some profit. turkey have missiles too. its makes turkey more important ? more stable ? more rich ? i dont know. cuba also almost had missiles in their ground but it didnt make them a better country by that. its all relative, but if you read machiavel, he have a good explanation about his point over a kingdon depends other kingdon´s forces to make their own security.

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I would never take it as a business so I don´t care about any profit. For me it is a question of a safe future so I have to think about it. So as I said and I repeat it again- if someone will convience me about a real threat from Iran or far East and if this system will be integrated in NATO, I would agree as I feel my own responsibility for my own children. I wouldn´t want to hear my son in case of war telling me: Dad, you have also had your head in the sand when there was a negotation about radar?
I just was asked by Chris for my opinion...you don´t need to agree...

seesul said:

1935 May 2. France concludes a treaty of mutual assistance with the Soviet Union
- May 16. Czechoslovakia signs a treaty of mutual assistance with the USSR, thereby joining the Franco - Soviet treaty

Treaty contents
Article 1
In the event that France or the U.S.S.R. are subjected to the threat or the danger of aggression on the part of a European state, the U.S.S.R. and France engage themselves reciprocally to proceed to an immediate mutual consultation on measures to take in order to observe the provisions of Article 10 of the League of Nations Pact.

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That was 1935. Since France signed a new treaty in 1938 in Munich becoming now Germany's ally, and neither the Soviets nor Czechs were even invited to that conferrence, that act, I guess automatically denounced all previouse agreements between France, USSR and Czechoslovakia.


1930s-era Soviet poster by Kukryniksy showing Western powers giving Hitler Czechoslovakia on a dish. Inscription in the flag:"On towards the East!"

stasoid said:

The Soviets in fact condemned the annexation postfactum. And later, in 1945 it was the Russians who reunited Sudeten Lands with the rest of Czechoslovakia.
It is strange that you forgotten or just ignored these important facts.

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Dont forget about the part of making the Czech pretty much a communist puppet state and controling everything including there lives and then invading them when they decided they did not want anything to do with it anymore.

It is strange that you have forgotten or just ignored these important facts.

stasoid said:

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact dividing Poland was signed some 6 months after Czechoslovakia had been completely occupied by Germany where the Soviets hadn't been involved in any way.

And if you speak about ´45- this year in fact started our living behind the iron curtain which I haven´t 4gotten and ignored...one occupation ended up just to allow to start the other occupation...that lasted more than 40 years

40 years of living behind the iron curtain must've been a nightmare for your freedoom loving people and I'm really sorry for few of your patriots died in 1968'
I dont wanna be very cynical here, but... at the end, you got your country independent, safe and sound, all in tact, it gained some territory, population grew, you still speak your language (and it's not German) ...
Russian tourists are your best customers now...
I mean, 40 years is nothing in the long term. In 100 years noone will remember what iron curtain or socialist economy was...

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So one tyranny replaced by another makes it all better?

seesul said:

OK, if you really think that the only problem during those 40 years was the socialist economy, this could explain your opinion on this matter...
I was born in 1973 and the velvet revolution toke place in 1989 so I wasn´t affected by this period so much. But if you lived here in 50´s and 60´s, the times, when the human right was only a strange word, you would speak another way. The times of political processes with the innocent people, which were executed, the times, when your children and relatives couldn´t get a good job or to go in a good school only because you didn´t join the communist party, the time, when former gestapo confidents used to work for a new pro-Russian goverment and had a power, a real power, the time, when the former Czech WW2 vets from the west front were jailed, interrogated, tortured and sometime also killed, only because their fought against Nazis with West Allies...that was reality that was here for these 40 years...
You should tell your interesting opinion to my father that enjoyed this period for all these 40 years...or better you should speak to the political prisoners or their family members...

BTW, in my born town used to live one WW2 Czech vet, a pilot. He served in France, Great Britain and even in Russia. Real hero with more than 10 kills.
His fortune? They threw him away from Czech Airforce in 1947, he never got a good job, he was getting only a small amount of money for all the rest of his life so he better moved to my born town where he was unknown for all the people there. By the time the people got to know him and he became our secret hero. He wasn´t allowed to speak about his experience. Unfortunately he died too soon, in 1990, few months after the velvet revolution. I spoke to him several times and since that time I hate both nacists and communists. I just wasn´t able to get over the fact, that such a hero, that fought for our freedom so many years, was a dirty duster for his OWN HOMELAND!
If you´re interested, more here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/s-ldr-josef-stehl-k-four-airforces-1603.html

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Thanks for sharing that. I myself did not live in the Czech or anyplace that was under the Soviet thumb print, so I can only imagine what it was like.

stasoid said:

That was 1935. Since France signed a new treaty in 1938 in Munich becoming now Germany's ally, and neither the Soviets nor Czechs were even invited to that conferrence, that act, I guess automatically denounced all previouse agreements between France, USSR and Czechoslovakia.

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interesting thougt...so the fact that France signed a new treaty meant automatically that also an agreement between czechoslovakia and soviet union was cancelled as well...what a strong friendship...
what has Kukryniksy drawn after molotov-ribentrop pact?
i give it up...

seesul said:

interesting thougt...so the fact that France signed a new treaty meant automatically that also an agreement between czechoslovakia and soviet union was cancelled as well...what a strong friendship...

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but the Soviets did offer even a military help to Czechs during the Sudeten crisis ,didn't they? In fact they were the only ones who were ready to intervene military at the time of Munich agreement.

Ramirezzz said:

but the Soviets did offer even a military help to Czechs during the Sudeten crisis ,didn't they? In fact they were the only ones who were ready to intervene military at the time of Munich agreement.

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Ramirezzz, the offer of military help from Soviet union was very controversial. For the Soviet army there were 2 possibilites how to get their soldiers to Czechoslovakia. Either tru Poland or tru Rumania. Both countries refused it and it´s is not hard to understand why...
So officially there was an pact between Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia signed in 1935 and people believed in it, but both Soviet and Czechoslovakian goverment knew that it was in fact a kliché. Hitler knew it as well and counted with it in Munich. Unfortunately he was right...
The other thing is that Stalin didn´t want the war with Hitler in 1938. His army wasn´t ready yet and the situation in the army command after Stalin´s purges was...terrible... This fact was later confirmed by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact...Stalin knew that the war with Hitler is unavoidable so he played for the time...

I got a great book about Stalin and Hitler written by, if I´m not wrong, by Allan Bullock. Without any irony I higly reccomend it to you. You gotta read it better more times just to understand the political connections of Hitler´s and Stalin´s decisions...

Please, don´t get me wrong. I know the Soviet army liberated our country and I´ll never forget the sacrifice of normal Soviet soldiers. But dirty Stalin´s policy put us under his (and Soviet) influence for next decades and this is what I speak about.

I´m also not a pure USA supporter. I don´t agree with many decisons of American goverment taken. It is so here- since 1945 till 1989 only the Soviet Union was a best model of the best industry, agriculture, education, research and level of living...and Soviets were the only liberators of our country...
Since 1989 a lot of people turned their attention for 180° from east to west so Germany and USA are the best model and no matter which decision is taken by USA and Germany, it´s always the best- for me it´s a crap. Every nation makes good, controversial and bad decisions and they have to learn from them. That´s why I absolutely can´t agree with Stasoid opinion that 40 years in the past is in fact nothing and they will be 4gotten in 100 years. No, the past can´t never be 4gotten and that´s why I´m interrested in history. ´cause who doesn´t know it´s own history can´t create it´s own peaceful future.

I give you a small example- as you can see in my siggy in August 1944 there was an air battle very close to my town. 9 USAAF bombers went down, 41 flyboys lost their lives and 28 from them were buried at the cemetery in my born town. Till 1989 none was allowed to speak about it. Since 80´s every year people from American embassy came here to lay the wreaths on their grave. My father always knew about their arrival in advance as he used to listen to Voice of America radio station, which was for sure forbidden. So I always went with my father to the grave when the people from embassy where there. You could see a lot of secret policemen around with cameras taking pictures. That time I´d never think that there are still some crewmembers alive and that one day I´ll meet them! After velvet revolution I´ve found out that they are alive and I got in touch with them...I also got in touch with their former enemies-German fighters-and don´t have any problem with that. By the time we created a strong relationships with both American and German veterans. When you speak to them you have their opinions and thoughts from first hand and you always realise what a bullshit every war is. There´s always policy, money or religion behind and normal people has to die for these political bastards...

So the years 1938 and 1968 are no exceptions for our country...As JugBR said, we are too small to be able to take a decision about our own future by ourself...

I´d never have a problem to meet you, to have a beer and discuss with you as I like friendships. My language knowledge (limited as you can see ), the possibility to travel and internet gave me a chance to get to know a lot of new friends and I´m really happy for that.

But if there was a war between Russia and Czech Republic, you would be forced to kill my Czech friends and I would be forced to kill your Russian friends...that´s absolutely crazy, isn´t it? Why??? What for??? Only because of ****ing politicians!!!

The war is most terrible thing I know and the veterans know it best...That´s why I´m happy I know few of them and that I got 2 of them to one table...
More here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...joe-owsianik-meeting-after-63-years-9298.html

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Dont forget about the part of making the Czech pretty much a communist puppet state and controling everything including there lives and then invading them when they decided they did not want anything to do with it anymore.

It is strange that you have forgotten or just ignored these important facts.

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in a certain point, all minor states or minor powers are somekind puppets of the great powers. lets dont forget that not just russians are guilty by its situation, but in almost of these states there was local leader, a local secret police, composed by local people. so its not just blame russia, but in the case of romenia, for example, blame ceaucescu, wich was romanian and a psycho.

just picked the example of romania because ceaucescu was no doubt the crazier comunist dictator of balkans. also very know by everybody. but in the case of east germany or czech, there was also a local leader, a local secret police, with local people that tortures and repressed their own citzens.

also, is good to remember, the spring of prague was instigated by a western propaganda radio. when soviets invaded czech and made that horrible scenes, that we saw in pictures posted before, what did west and nato to help the czechs that was been killed ?

the smallers allways loose, its a vicious game.

seesul i didnt posted that to convinced you to be against the missiles, just putting a different point of view to be analized. but you right, we cant just hide from the main issues.

JugBR said:

seesul i didnt posted that to convinced you to be against the missiles, just putting a different point of view to be analized. but you right, we cant just hide from the main issues.

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That´s OK, no problem. It´s just a discussion...
I gotta withstand the pressure on me being the only Czech or Pole in this discussion

JugBR said:

also, is good to remember, the spring of prague was instigated by a western propaganda radio. when soviets invaded czech and made that horrible scenes, that we saw in pictures posted before, what did west and nato to help the czechs that was been killed ?

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Very easy answer my friend, such a NATO and Soviet Union confrontation would mean a WW3 and in this case you can imagine a result. So we better were sacrificied, as usually in the past...

JugBR said:

in a certain point, all minor states or minor powers are somekind puppets of the great powers. lets dont forget that not just russians are guilty by its situation, but in almost of these states there was local leader, a local secret police, composed by local people. so its not just blame russia, but in the case of romenia, for example, blame ceaucescu, wich was romanian and a psycho.

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You are correct, I think that stasoid does not understand that however and thinks that the Soveit Union was the most innocent peace loving country in the world and the West was just out to kill them all!

seesul said:

That´s why I absolutely can´t agree with Stasoid opinion that 40 years in the past is in fact nothing and they will be 4gotten in 100 years. No, the past can´t never be 4gotten and that´s why I´m interrested in history. ´cause who doesn´t know it´s own history can´t create it´s own peaceful future.

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Hey, lets think positive and move ahead. I dont know what kind of a tyrany you had there, but what I will remember of Czechoslovacia from 70th and 80th when I was a schoolboy is your great hockey team which kicked our ass so many times (I guess all of your players are in NHL these days), your cool Jawa motorcycles that every kid in my neighbourhood dreamed about, your orange painted Skoda trams in my hometown and those mighty Tatra trucks...
Do you still have anything of that? Or just beer? Is beer still good as it was 20 years ago?

stasoid said:

Hey, lets think positive and move ahead. I dont know what kind of a tyrany you had there, but what I will remember of Czechoslovacia from 70th and 80th when I was a schoolboy is your great hockey team which kicked our ass so many times (I guess all of your players are in NHL these days), your cool Jawa motorcycles that every kid in my neighbourhood dreamed about, your orange painted Skoda trams in my hometown and those mighty Tatra trucks...
Do you still have anything of that? Or just beer? Is beer still good as it was 20 years ago?

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Tatra- still in production
Skoda Trams- still in production
Jawa- as a big motorbike fan I can tell you that its conception hasn´t changed too much since 1947 till 1989. Till the end of 70´s Jawa belonged among the best motorbikes in the world. Our communistic president Novotny said in 70´s that we will drive into communism on 4 wheels and since that the Jawa development was in fact stopped. That´s why when I was a kid I always dreamed about Japanese motorbike with 4 stroke engine and when I was 20 my dream came true. Should we really be independent and sovereign state I would also dream about JAWA.
Jawa CZ Motorcycle Mopeds - West Coast Motorcycles
Beer we always had and still have good, would say the smaller private breweries make better beer than before now.
We still have a good natinal hockey theam. After the revolution we won the world championships in 1996,1999,2000,2001 and 2005. In 1998 we won Olympic games.

Don´t know when I´ve spoken about tyrany. I´ve spoken about occupation and about its consequences for the normal people. Don´t know if you have read it...

the czech republic is really a very industrialized country. i read once about the skodas been imported to uk in the comunist times. also some references that czechslovakia was a kind of "paradise" behind the iron curtain: more liberal, more advanced, etc..

I think it can cause more problems in a part of the world that has not yet come to rest. If I was Russia I would also through a fit about this. Most of all their military, navy and airforce is in shambles and if you look at where the US are at the moment I would also be scared.

The Russians also have their pride and I think they want to once again be a super power, but remember the US is not always the best for everyone in the world or so to speak the greatest. Think from their point of view and you will also feel some of the heart break that they feel.

How will you guys from the US feel if the US government and economy came crashing down and everything is worth nothing and the US Navy, Airforce and Military is almost nothing from what it once was?

Henk said:

How will you guys from the US feel if the US government and economy came crashing down and everything is worth nothing and the US Navy, Airforce and Military is almost nothing from what it once was?

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If Obama gets elected we could answer that question.