D-Day - 6th June, 1944.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Mr. Evangilder:

I have no room to talk there? So you are suggesting that just like Plan_D does virtually on a daily basis with many members, also I conduct my own rampages insulting people and launching groundless acussations?

Read very well what he said to me there; it was pretty much like "you downplay the fierce defensive effort of the British people". He does not know me to launch such acussation.

Please do not confuse disliking the ideas of someone (disagreeing) with being unnecessarily cyberaggressive and insulting.

Had any member posted the very same comment you just directed to me there, the exact phrase having Plan_D as the receiver, I am sure you can figure out the kind of vocabulary and "attitude" would come from him as response.

As even said you have no room to talk here. I can show many of your posts were you initiate the insulting. Here are your problems:

1. You talk to people like you are a king and they are a peasant. You talk down to them.

2. Whenever you disagree with someone, you dismiss them as wasting your time.

3. Whenever you do not like what someone says you tell them that there opinions are not worth anything (remember that one, you said that my opinions were not worth anything. What makes you think yours are then).

4. You sly sarcastic remarks are not funny. They do not make you cultured as you think you are. They piss people off.

5. You get backed into a corner and you start throwing insults.

I am sure everyone here will agree with me when I say these things.

That is why people like pD talk the way they do to you. Because they are tired of you saying that they are completely wrong because they believe something else. You tell them that there thoughts are wrong because they are the allied story. Well what if you story is wrong. What if there German story is not the truth.

Basically poeple like pD are tired of the way you talk to them and others and that is why they just straight out dismis eveyrthing you say and throw out insults. It is a taste of your own medicine.

 

[Udet]

Mr. Der Alder:

That is not correct.

Whenever I´ve talked down any members, I was simply responding in the same intensity to comments previously sent by them to me.

You can read again on the "Best combination of maneuverability and speed" thread, where many of you made a scandal when I said "I am wasting my time" to Sir KrazyKanuk in one of my postings.

If you read a mere 3 or 4 postings before mine, you will discover Sir KrazyKanuk told me exactly that. This is easy to verifiy. He first threw the tomato.

So, what I did was just to respond in same intensity to a comment first launched at me. And as I have said, no one told anything to KrazyKanuk for being likewise smart enough to feel he is wasting his time here.

Der Adler: point (5) of your comment is way out of the line. My attitude can be trainable, so I´d appreciate it very greatly if you could please post or PM me with any comments from me that fit within such category. Getting cornered and start launching insults as the only resource? I do not think so.


You have the right to like and defend Plan_D as much as you want; in a diametrically opposed scenario you have the right to dislike me or my views i do not care, but what you can not deny is the fact the individual is way worse than I am when it comes to launch insults at people here and has not received any sort of words to refrain himself from behaving in such a manner. (need more examples? you can read his rant on some argentinian members who were calmly dicussing the Argentinian-British war of the Falklands).

Sorry guys, this was my last comment regarding this issue. Do not want to divert the content of the thread no more. I was just exercising my right to defend myself.


Jabberwocky:

It is not necessary to be sarcastic. I have some 30 photos of the German "assembly" of barges, the motley fleet that would allegedly take the german invasion force across the channel.

Also I have the Hitler´s famous directive.

You think I´ve not come across the evidence you are presenting to make a case?

It´d appear you just want to see the evidence that will make you feel more comfortable.

I will finish this by asking you something -also for you Mr. Hunter368-, are you going to say the following can not dispute your case?

(i) Germany´s official peace offering (made twice: a consistent foreign policy regarding the British empire, which by the way, Hitler admired). Did Hitler ever, EVER, thought of peace with the soviets?

Consistent even with the defeated France: other than assuring it would not fall in British hands, no claims were ever made to the French fleet or France´s african colonies. Did Hitler sent military units to occupy the french territories, say, in Alger or Morocco? I mean, someone as obssesed with conquering more and more, as he has been portrayed, would have sent soldiers, just for the glorious photo. He did not. Concentrated blow against the east. No scatering of my military.

(ii) Hitler´s obssesion with destroying the bolsheviks.

Hitler´s war commenced aiming east. Poland. A barrier standing between Germany and the favorite foe: USSR.

Making the political and military aid operations with nations of eastern europe -and Finland- to gain allies and secure the flanks for the projected war against the soviets (I have several books focused solely on this particular issue, I can recommend you some if you wish).

(iii) As some of you have correctly suggested here, Germany was unfamiliar with seaborne operations. The allies apparently fit in the same category, for their first attempt at Dieppe got completely obliterated.

There is something to be clarified though, unfamiliar, or unexperienced with seaborne operations does not make you a fool. Not even Hitler can be called a fool in 1940.

You think the Germans did not know the Royal Navy existed? Do you think they did not know of the British seamenship?

The German military doctrine was one of armored spearheads in close cooperation of the Luftwaffe´s flying artillery. Do you think they did not rapidly discover it would be close to impossible to get their tanks across the channel with the things they had available?

Hunter368, yes, Hitler wanted peace, but hey, he was not a lamb right?

Think of this, and I believe it is here where you miss the point:

I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode inspite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

So, if Hitler had in fact been this blood thirsty sod, trying to expand his conquest just for the fun of it, and you have to believe this, he would have sent everything out to attempt the invasion of England in 1940.

Hitler was not a man that would save the blood of his military when it came to meet his expectations, especially when the enemy was the soviet one.

At Stalingrad, a time when issues peaked, he did not care, at all. It is very likely he knew that if his orders were to be carried out the 6th Army would be doomed: he decided to doom the army. Let it be. Period.

So for the alleged "Seelowe", had England really been a plan, he would have ordered Admiral Raeder to bring everything: battlecruisers "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau", all the heavy cruisers, the few light cruisers and whatever destroyers available, also the bulk of the U-boat force. I do not recall exactly what was "Bismarck" doing by this months -conducting sea trials if recall correctly- but perhaps also "Bismarck" takes part.

Anf of course, about the entire Luftwaffe.
All the eggs in one basket? Never.

That perhaps Hitler in fact may have desired to invade the island, sure!When finally realizing peace would not be possible in the west, and a war with several fronts was a definitive, a permanent reality, and never as a fundamental plan or goal.

Again, Hitler was no fool. Although he sought peace with the Empire, also he knew there could be a possibility for his foreign policy for the west to fail, and have England as an enemy.

Hitler´s alleged plan to invade England was more the product of a sudden undesired circumstance and not one of premeditation and profound desire.

 

[plan_D]

Calmly discussing the Falklands? Did you even read what he said? Like, I don't know, demanding them back? And you really must not be using any grey matter, you do not want to divert the course of this thread? Look at the title of the thread, what has that got to do with Hitler's invasion of Britain?

 

[Hunter368]

Mr. Der Alder:

That is not correct.

Whenever I´ve talked down any members, I was simply responding in the same intensity to comments previously sent by them to me.

You can read again on the "Best combination of maneuverability and speed" thread, where many of you made a scandal when I said "I am wasting my time" to Sir KrazyKanuk in one of my postings.

If you read a mere 3 or 4 postings before mine, you will discover Sir KrazyKanuk told me exactly that. This is easy to verifiy. He first threw the tomato.

So, what I did was just to respond in same intensity to a comment first launched at me. And as I have said, no one told anything to KrazyKanuk for being likewise smart enough to feel he is wasting his time here.

Der Adler: point (5) of your comment is way out of the line. My attitude can be trainable, so I´d appreciate it very greatly if you could please post or PM me with any comments from me that fit within such category. Getting cornered and start launching insults as the only resource? I do not think so.


You have the right to like and defend Plan_D as much as you want; in a diametrically opposed scenario you have the right to dislike me or my views i do not care, but what you can not deny is the fact the individual is way worse than I am when it comes to launch insults at people here and has not received any sort of words to refrain himself from behaving in such a manner. (need more examples? you can read his rant on some argentinian members who were calmly dicussing the Argentinian-British war of the Falklands).

Sorry guys, this was my last comment regarding this issue. Do not want to divert the content of the thread no more. I was just exercising my right to defend myself.


Jabberwocky:

It is not necessary to be sarcastic. I have some 30 photos of the German "assembly" of barges, the motley fleet that would allegedly take the german invasion force across the channel.

Also I have the Hitler´s famous directive.

You think I´ve not come across the evidence you are presenting to make a case?

It´d appear you just want to see the evidence that will make you feel more comfortable.

I will finish this by asking you something -also for you Mr. Hunter368-, are you going to say the following can not dispute your case?

(i) Germany´s official peace offering (made twice: a consistent foreign policy regarding the British empire, which by the way, Hitler admired). Did Hitler ever, EVER, thought of peace with the soviets?

Consistent even with the defeated France: other than assuring it would not fall in British hands, no claims were ever made to the French fleet or France´s african colonies. Did Hitler sent military units to occupy the french territories, say, in Alger or Morocco? I mean, someone as obssesed with conquering more and more, as he has been portrayed, would have sent soldiers, just for the glorious photo. He did not. Concentrated blow against the east. No scatering of my military.

(ii) Hitler´s obssesion with destroying the bolsheviks.

Hitler´s war commenced aiming east. Poland. A barrier standing between Germany and the favorite foe: USSR.

Making the political and military aid operations with nations of eastern europe -and Finland- to gain allies and secure the flanks for the projected war against the soviets (I have several books focused solely on this particular issue, I can recommend you some if you wish).

(iii) As some of you have correctly suggested here, Germany was unfamiliar with seaborne operations. The allies apparently fit in the same category, for their first attempt at Dieppe got completely obliterated.

There is something to be clarified though, unfamiliar, or unexperienced with seaborne operations does not make you a fool. Not even Hitler can be called a fool in 1940.

You think the Germans did not know the Royal Navy existed? Do you think they did not know of the British seamenship?

The German military doctrine was one of armored spearheads in close cooperation of the Luftwaffe´s flying artillery. Do you think they did not rapidly discover it would be close to impossible to get their tanks across the channel with the things they had available?

Hunter368, yes, Hitler wanted peace, but hey, he was not a lamb right?

Think of this, and I believe it is here where you miss the point:

I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode inspite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

So, if Hitler had in fact been this blood thirsty sod, trying to expand his conquest just for the fun of it, and you have to believe this, he would have sent everything out to attempt the invasion of England in 1940.

Hitler was not a man that would save the blood of his military when it came to meet his expectations, especially when the enemy was the soviet one.

At Stalingrad, a time when issues peaked, he did not care, at all. It is very likely he knew that if his orders were to be carried out the 6th Army would be doomed: he decided to doom the army. Let it be. Period.

So for the alleged "Seelowe", had England really been a plan, he would have ordered Admiral Raeder to bring everything: battlecruisers "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau", all the heavy cruisers, the few light cruisers and whatever destroyers available, also the bulk of the U-boat force. I do not recall exactly what was "Bismarck" doing by this months -conducting sea trials if recall correctly- but perhaps also "Bismarck" takes part.

Anf of course, about the entire Luftwaffe.
All the eggs in one basket? Never.

That perhaps Hitler in fact may have desired to invade the island, sure!When finally realizing peace would not be possible in the west, and a war with several fronts was a definitive, a permanent reality, and never as a fundamental plan or goal.

Again, Hitler was no fool. Although he sought peace with the Empire, also he knew there could be a possibility for his foreign policy for the west to fail, and have England as an enemy.

Hitler´s alleged plan to invade England was more the product of a sudden undesired circumstance and not one of premeditation and profound desire.

Udet plz see my response in WW2 General titled "Udet- Germany really did not intend to Invade UK ever." And let this thread get back on track. Thanks

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Mr. Der Alder:

That is not correct.

Whenever I´ve talked down any members, I was simply responding in the same intensity to comments previously sent by them to me.

You can read again on the "Best combination of maneuverability and speed" thread, where many of you made a scandal when I said "I am wasting my time" to Sir KrazyKanuk in one of my postings.

If you read a mere 3 or 4 postings before mine, you will discover Sir KrazyKanuk told me exactly that. This is easy to verifiy. He first threw the tomato.

So, what I did was just to respond in same intensity to a comment first launched at me. And as I have said, no one told anything to KrazyKanuk for being likewise smart enough to feel he is wasting his time here.

Der Adler: point (5) of your comment is way out of the line. My attitude can be trainable, so I´d appreciate it very greatly if you could please post or PM me with any comments from me that fit within such category. Getting cornered and start launching insults as the only resource? I do not think so.

This is more than just that one thread, it involves ever since you have been there and someone says something that does not correspond with your beliefs about Hitler and how bad the Allies were.

You have the right to like and defend Plan_D as much as you want; in a diametrically opposed scenario you have the right to dislike me or my views i do not care, but what you can not deny is the fact the individual is way worse than I am when it comes to launch insults at people here and has not received any sort of words to refrain himself from behaving in such a manner. (need more examples? you can read his rant on some argentinian members who were calmly dicussing the Argentinian-British war of the Falklands).

I tell plan_D and any member of this forum when I think they are wrong, adn that goes for you as well, deal with it!

I was just exercising my right to defend myself.

Then stop thinking you are gods greatest gift to this forum and people will not have to attack you or actually more like defend themselves against you.

Hunter368, yes, Hitler wanted peace, but hey, he was not a lamb right?

Yeah and Sadam Hussein did not really want to gas the Kurds.

I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode inspite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

If what you are trying to say here is that Hitler was being Bullied by the allies, then really Udet you have twisted sense of History because it was Hitler who started WW2. It was Hitler that ordered the Holocaust. Hitler was the evil one and the Allies did the right thing by stopping him. Hitler was the Bully here.

That perhaps Hitler in fact may have desired to invade the island, sure!When finally realizing peace would not be possible in the west, and a war with several fronts was a definitive, a permanent reality, and never as a fundamental plan or goal.

The only reason he would have attempted a Peace with England would have been so that he concentrate on Russia. Hitler was a mad man who had one thing on his mind, conquest. Sorry Udet but that is the case.

Again, Hitler was no fool. Although he sought peace with the Empire, also he knew there could be a possibility for his foreign policy for the west to fail, and have England as an enemy.

No he was a fool to think that he could take on the world all at one time. He was a fool in the fact that he fired the first the shots.


Now as people have requested, the topic of this thread Udet is D-DAY D-Day - 6th June, 1944 not Operation SeeLoewe or Hitler The Peaceful Man who did not want War, it is all Allied Propaganda!.

KEEP IT ON TOPIC!

 

[syscom3]

Lets hear some more opinions where the allies should have/could have done things differently.

 

[evangilder]

Yes, let's please keep this on topic.

 

[plan_D]

I'm thinking about that question, syscom. And this thread will incorporate the Normandy campaign up to the capture of Paris. At the moment I'm bringing together information on the leaders and command structures.

 

[mosquitoman]

I think the Allies were very ambitious in their plans- attempting to capture Caen on the first day and the paratroop drops were too scattered to take most of their objectives and the Allied planners must have know that looking at Husky and Avalanche. Gliders were the best means of putting airborne troops into the action IMO

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ill somewhat agree, however quite a bit of gliders I believe were taken down. The problem when you use gliders is the fact that if you take one out you kill everyone on board. If they jump there is a good chance of a lot of them making it down.

The advantage of the glider would be that if it did make it down, then there would be a cohesive fighting force on the ground as a whole.

 

[syscom3]

I think the allies completely underestimated the navigational problems to accuratley drop their "sticks". Plus thegerman AA defenses were far tougher than planned.

I would have added far more pathfinders for navigation marking.

I also would have planned to use some light attack bombers to go after the German AA defenses while the C47's were flying over.

 

[Gnomey]

Another thing that didn't help was that many of the C-47 pilots had not met heavy flak before and therefore tried to fly around it/away from it thus getting of course as well as going faster than planned, none of which helped drop accuracy.

 

[Erich]

remember what the Wehrmacht did in the American sector ........... turned the water gates open to flood the fields which did not help US navigation in the least

 

[evangilder]

Yep, and it would have been bad for gliders.

 

[Gnomey]

Very true Eric, and the bocage would not of helped either for the Gliders, leaving them with short landing grounds.

 

[evangilder]

That too.

 

[syscom3]

Why couldnt the USN or RN deploy several "radio" buoys off the coast of Cotentain (spelling?) peninsula so the C47's could do radio cross fix's for a more accurate drop?

They could do this using small subs, have them monitor the airwaves for the signal that the C47's were taking off, and then turn on the radio transmitters when the transports were over the channel.

 

[Erich]

the biggest probelm was flooding of the fields and not necessarily from light 2cm Fla for the gliders, C-47's and the like. there wre no visible markintations for the pilots and crew nor the commanders to rely upon except for possibly recognized intersections/road cuts that were pre-marked on theri maps. /besides at least for the Us forces not quite the genre of vetreran W-ss or Heer units to face them. seems the 2nd Ss and 17th Ss Panzer-grn were the only two W-SS units to defy US massive ground forces when they had gotten in place. 17th Ss lost their Stug Abt and their Pz Jäger units during air attack by Jbos when cought out in open roads vehicle to vehicle something they had no clues about. Have to say the Pz. grendaier compnaies did put up a stout defence amidst the continual US artillery hammer that came down on them daily.

 

[evangilder]

I remember reading that a group of C-47s were supposed to get a signal from the ground by an advance unit of paras. They were killed after landing and thus, could not provide the markers for the C-47s.

 

[Erich]

Sadly there are too many accounts of US paras dropped well behind the stick and marker points well deep into enemy held territory and drowned in process or hung up in blown out trees like rats to the slaughter house