Damn Shame This .... Time to Get Out ..?

Do unto others as they do unto you. Death from above via UCAVs. It pisses them off and brings them out of the nest for easier recon.

For the same reason I say keep "insulting" Mohammad [whatever today's definition of a slight that might be such as a cartoon, physical depiction or other such nonsense]. They tend to kill more of each other than us. 4th century morons, they apparently missed the Age of Enlightenment and any of its potential. This is a religious war and nobody wants to say it. Let's get it on now and quit beating around the bush.

I should close this thread now, for I have the right to remain silent but do not have the ability. Mods?

Matt, I hope you don't. I don't think anyone has gotten out of hand or been insulting. Perhaps if we take a step back. In a nutshell this is what we are dealing with:
In the year 610 CE, the Prophet Mohammed received his first revelation from the Archangel Gabriel (or Jibrael in Arabic) while meditating in a cave during the month of Ramadan. By 622 CE, Islam as a cohesive religion was formed, with the words of God or Allah as given to Mohammed documented in a text known as the Quran. Like the Bible the majority of the scripture or Sura contained in the Quran is an amalgamation of tenets and beliefs many hundreds of years older than Islam as well as compilations of many men over the proceeding few hundred years. Islam remained as a single belief for 661 years.
The Sects:
The Sunni
Sunni Muslims are by far the majority. Approximately 90% of all Muslims in the world are Sunni. These are the mainstream, traditional Muslims who believe in a strict determinism. The defining belief of Sunni Muslims is that the acceptable successors to Mohammed by the subsequent leaders of Islam or "caliphate" could and should be chosen from anyone suitable that was a member of Mohamed's tribe, but not necessarily an heir or relative of Mohamed.
The Shia
The Shiite's central belief is that after the assassinations of the fourth Caliph in 661 AD, the next successor to Mohamed should have been Ali, his brother-in-law. They split with the Sunni over the issue of succession shortly thereafter. According to Shiite doctrine, their spiritual and political leader is the Imam, who is said to be a direct blood descendant of Ali. The Shia and Sunni differ on matters of Quranic doctrine and the Shia even have their own cannon of the Hadith (the description of Mohamed's words and deeds). Another primary difference is the belief in a justice system by the Shia that is inherited from the Mu'tazilits or "rationalists".
In the simplest terms possible the rift is meritocracy vs. nepotism…
Would that that were all…
The Sufi
Sufism officially developed in the 10th century AD as a type of mystical interpretation of Islam. The basic tenet was of Pantheism or a belief that God and the universe are one. Mainstream Muslims disagree with this idea and instead believe in God (Allah) as a separate being who created the universe.
Sufi's believe they may attain an inner, mystical knowledge of God through mediation, deprivation, fasting and prayer. In addition, the Sufi believe that the Quran could be interpreted in many ways which gave license to seek hidden, mystical meanings within its pages.
Sufi's are the rebels of Islam…the hippies or the "new agers" to use western terms. Most Sufi's are in Pakistan
Wahhabism
Two hundred years after the rise of Sufism and four hundred years after Charles Martel stopped the Islamic Jihad into Europe at the Battle of Tours, Islam was suffering from another crisis of stagnation and devolution. In the 12th century CE, Muslims had begun to revert to idol and tomb worship and the austere monotheism of the previous centuries had seriously degraded. From this environment a peaceful revisionist movement known as Wahhabism took root.
The movement was named for Sheikh Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, a charismatic individual from the area around modern day Riyadh who, by the age of 10, had memorized the Quran and was leading prayers. Sheikh al-Wahhab had written many books on the subject of reformation based on the Quran by the time Wahhabism had become a full blown movement.
Again in western terms Wahhabism is somewhat akin to the Lutheran movement that took place in Christianity, whereby the reformers attempted to get the religion back to what it was originally meant to be.
Conclusion
There are a variety of sub-sects within each sect and adherents to different philosophies within those sub-sects. Much of it, in fact the majority, has common tenets such as the Five Pillars of Islam (profession of faith, prayers, alms for the poor, the Hajj or pilgrimage to Mecca and the observance of Ramadan). The differences, however minor they may appear to our modern minds, are the ancient wedge issues that have prevented unity in the Middle East for many centuries now.
It is naïve to think that these "minor" differences can be overcome by intervention from any one person or group from the West.
IMHO, Islam is at a period in its history that Christianity was in around the time just before the Renaissance. Time does not move at the same pace for all peoples of the world, as hard as that is to comprehend.

Matt, I think you are correct in not "appeaseing" the offended. It makes me sad that some would censor opinion (and cartoons) in the misguided hope that the extremests will be placated. History should show the folly of such tactics. My own experence with the mentaly unbalanced, (one brother and an uncle), is that a firm stance is the best.
I am not suggesting that all adherents of Islam are mentaly sick, but there are probably a few at the top, and these, naturally, are the ones that must be dealt with.
As a friend of mine is fond of saying, "The Truth isn't always pretty, but it is the Truth!"

Keep it rolling. Its not too bad so far.

Islam was spread by the sword. The expansion from the emergence of the prophet to the reach of the converted within his lifetime is unbelievable - akin to Alexander the Great. And upon his death, Islam immediately went into schism mode (Shia-Sunni). There is no tolerance of any kind in Islam. People marvel at the glorious days of the Caliphate in Spain - Jews, Moslems, Christians all drinking tea together and writing poetry ... . Tolerance in Islam is achieved through a state of Dhimmitude - non believers are allowed to "function" in Islamic society as long as they know their place (Dhimmi) and pay their "special" taxes and levies.

Now - not to be controversial but simply for historical perspective - compare the trajectory of the Islamic religion to the trajectory of Christianity. Christ died before the faith had really taken "hold". The Faith was outlawed by the Roman Empire for 313 years until adapted by Emperor Constantine and made the official religion of the Empire.

In the centuries that followed, Roman Christianity has many many schisms, splits, scandals etc. etc. The 100 Years War in Europe - a ghastly affair by any standards - was a Christian religious war ( a war which BTW planted the seeds of hatred in protestant Germany for the interference in Germanic matters of faith by a very Catholic France) ...we know where that led ......

So Christianity's record is hardly pure ..... BUT ..... it has been evolving since its earliest days as an underground movement throughout the Empire.

Islam is frozen .... there is this huge dichotomy between someone having an advanced engineering degree (for example) from western universities and yet being spiritually comfortable blowing up innocent civillians in an airplane or on a train or an embassy. That kind of mental-moral compartmentalization suggests an inability to cope with the modern world which is complex, chock full of irrational ironies, contrasts, outrages, insults, indecencies and cartoons. Engineering doesn't necessarily equip one to see the whole picture (morally, culturally, whatever) ..... to cope with reality as it is, not what some might like it to be.

But this very simplification of life - along with strict rules on how to live that life - was one of the contributing factors to Islam's phenomenal trajectory .... just as Christianity's "joyous, cheerful meekness" allowed it to thrive underground.

Modern weapons in 5th century hands is a dangerous combination. Time to pray.

MM

"Pray" for more of this:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/a...er-giving-her-a-warning-she-was-badly-covered

Winning Hearts and Minds isn't an effective strategy anywhere in the Islamic World:

Raw footage: Protests in Islamabad - CBS News Video

[Skip the Commercial at the top]

"I love the smell of whiz-bangs in the morning"

MM

michaelmaltby said:

Winning Hearts and Minds isn't an effective strategy anywhere in the Islamic World:

Raw footage: Protests in Islamabad - CBS News Video

[Skip the Commercial at the top]

"I love the smell of whiz-bangs in the morning"

MM

Click to expand...

The most effective war against this type of borderless extremist is the cultural war. The only strategy that works is the assimilation into our culture of the young people. I am pretty sure we as argentines have a lot of flaws but problems with muslims (or any other religion for that matter) is not one of them. In my city (wich is not the biggest one around here) there are 2 mosques and 3 sinagogues between hundreds of churches and everyone is doing his business without annoying the other if you know what I mean. There actually a lot of arabs here who are christians.

air attacks will never replace "boots on the ground" especially in a guerilla war. The Phoenix program in Vietnam had some positive results but the danger exists that it can get co-opted into vengence/anti-rival squads.

Click to expand...

I fully agree, but I dont think there is any advantage for the safety of US to gain 100 square kilometers less or more in a barren, hellish land as Afghanistan. Probably the politicians would say the objetive is to protect that of the other ally, but allies in those place are just traitors with an human mask.

I frankly love this mentality of our enemies. You draw a cartoon and the enemy kills each other. How wildly insane is that. The pen truly is mightier than the sword.

the pen Matt and the distribution of certain funds......after hearing the so-=called dictator of Egypt telling Obama to kiss my ass isn't high time to reduce funds to this wanna be and just leave it alone at home, many downcast Americans could use a little money upper right about now.............

quite being the worlds stupid Police force

"... quite being the worlds stupid Police force".

Agree 100% ... absolutely thankless job. For what ....?

MM

yep But stabilization of the world is priceless right. If not the "hated US and her colonialism" then well, whom? Retreat into isolationism and trust in the rest of the world by population percentage? Indonesia? China? India? Pakistan?

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Look at the US and her wars and conquered/losses. Historically we must be the most benevolent winners/losers on this planet by allowing foes to continue to foster their post-war culture, economics and state assets.

"... Historically we must be the most benevolent winners/losers on this planet by allowing foes to continue to foster their post-war culture, economics and state assets."

This is of course very true, Matt, ... the Marshall Plan comes to mind immediately ... so does the Peter Sellers film "The Mouse That Roared" ...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or9C-gt4TpA

But he bottom line is that you don't makes true friends or allies by pleasing or appeasing your enemies, and, binding agreements rarely work unless the signatories share some basic value structures.

Putting that into some kind of "policy" means that one is a realist. One recognizes that the world is neither fair nor benign. And so one tends to ones own house .. always doing the best possible with what one has and with the cards one is dealt -- think Finland (lemonade from lemons). But at the same time, one resists the pressure (political, religious, sentimental, whatever) to go into other parts of the world, other cultures and civilizations and "fix" things, put things "right", show others the "light".

I am not talking isolationism. I am not talking defeatism. I am talking confidence (Faith) in one's values at home, education, prosperity, and commerce. If you make something that we can use, we will buy it under reasonable conditions. If we make something you like, we will sell it, under reasonable conditions.

Finland and Japan are are 2 20th century success stories. And Germany today is succeeding with economics in what it failed to do (twice) with war.

Historically, Sweden is one of the few nations that had empire, lost it, and got over it gracefully ... But even Sweden has got to re-think itself in the face of Islamic colonization and extremism -- as recent events indicate.

Einstein was correct -- repeating the same flawed or naive sequence over and over again expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

Proud Canadian

MM

I think we are all bending and tearing down chunks of the central thought here but we still need to try and understand the "eastern" mind-set which we cannot it appears we still want to control or allow for a better term these mideastern peoples a western democracy and it has never worked except for Israel..........

"... these mideastern peoples..." ...?

Hasan hospitalized - San Antonio Express-News

MM

let the purging begin ~

Connect the dots .... an interesting read:

A new Cold War

MM

I can certainly see a possible connection, although some of it smacks of the "those darn nazi's" scenario favored by hack novel writers.
I am certain that the KGB was responsible for some of the supplies and tactics, but never forget that they (Islamists) hate the jews for being jews and us for supporting Israel.
Spontaneous demonstrations are seldom spontaneous, granted.
As far as Hasan is concerned, I hope that he survives long enough to be hanged.

And the X-USSR has its own problems with domestic Islamists .... with good reason if one remembers how Stalin treated all religions and ethnic minorities. Andropov may have been trying for a two-fer ... redirection to the King of Capitalism from the King of Cruel.

MM

No matter how you look at it we have to learn to deal with both. The mid-east still sits on most of the world sweet crude and we cannot live without it

"... No matter how you look at it we have to learn to deal with both. The mid-east still sits on most of the world sweet crude and we cannot live without it..."

Speak for yourself, Mike. I personally am happy burning Athasbaska hydrocarbons and Canadian on-shore natural gas in my vehicles and to heat my home. But ...... I could use the same argument right back at you "sweet" opium, or "sweet" hashish originating in the Islamic World being reason and necessity enough for staying in Afghanistan. And we both know that line of thinking is wrong, seriously wrong.

Remember the last time we went down this particular trail Ol Buddy ?, the Mods cancelled the show. Is that what you want for this one, too?

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/day-after-earth-day-32533.html

MM