Damn Shame This .... Time to Get Out ..?

MichaelM, too bad we are so far apart in distance, I would LOVE to sit and debate with you, would be a very interesting evening(s). Tell me if I summerize this correctly. Our single bone of contention is whether it is permissible to suspend constitutional rights during a time of crisis. Would you agree?
I/we had a thread going about Abe Lincoln whom I consider our 1st dictator. A man who IN TIME OF CRISIS violated the Constitution (that he had sworn to protect and defend against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC) time and time again. He suspended Habeus Corpus, issued unbacked money, prevented voters from voting, imprisoned detractors without trial, ect. Booth's words were "Sic Semper Tryanus" clearly he thought the same. Would all have gone back to "normal" after the war? Hard to say with Lincoln assinated but we still have "Play Money" in the US and recently the Patriot Act. It is difficult for the power brokers to "uncross the Rubicon" once they have tasted that new power.
So my friend since you are not "one of them" it is easy to suspend their rights, after all the current crisis demands it. Keep reading Pastor Martin. What happens to you and yours when a crises requires your rights to be curtailed? What happens when a crises requires voting to be suspended (by the way, in the US there is NO garanteed right to vote only prohibitions on who cannot be denied) and the current leaders decide only they can handle the crisis and need to stay in power an extra 20 years. Perhaps civil courts can't be trusted and you need to be tried by military tribunals.
Nazi Germany is a perfect example of a people surrendering their rights because of a CRISIS
Rights surrendered are seldom returned completely

"... Nazi Germany is a perfect example of a people surrendering their rights because of a CRISIS".

An example yes - but of the most extreme kind - and in the name of what was fundamentally an "evil" cause.

I am familiar with your views on President Lincoln - and while I have no stake in the debate - as a Canadian - I do NOT share your views. I do not believe the Civil War was avoidable - given the gaping dichotomy between "all men are created equal ..." and the reality of the time. I can understand where a JW Booth might be coming from ..... as a Southerner ... but I think the following link is a fair assessment of Lincoln's legacy:

http://arts.nationalpost.com/2012/10/09/abraham-lincoln-was-worthy-of-his-reputation

In my view, Martial Law or The War Measures Act are more typical examples of what I contemplate when I justify suspension of certain freedoms in times of national crisis. During WWII - with projects such as Manhattan - there was much secrecy, little transparency, and the Japanese were not the only group to find themselves in the eye of the state.

In Canada - in October, 1970, we had the October Crisis. The Federal Liberal government at the urging of the Premier of Quebec and the Mayor of Montreal declared the War Measures Act - in response to the kidnapping of a British diplomat (James Cross) and the murder of a Quebec Cabinet Minister (Pierre LaPorte). Habius Corpus was suspended, and there was a late night roundup of the "usual" suspects. The measure was supported - widely - in all of Canada except Quebec - but it was Quebec extremists that had caused the situation in the first place so there were few tears shed for them.

Things were returned to "normal" within weeks IIRC - and everyone felt that democracy had "normalized" except of course, the Quebec nationalists who were/are seeking to destroy the union (confederation) that is Canada. They have never forgotten but have never accepted their part in provoking events.

I think it a mistake and a provocation to use the example of Nazi Germany too loosely or too frequently. The United States is NOT Nazi Germany. Israel is not Nazi Germany. It is the presence of Evil that should requires the sensitive nerve .... not the limitation of "entitlements" per se. Is evil that hard to detect ...? Initially, in small doses, it can be. But like arsenic poisoning, evil in small doses has a cumulative effect. And that cumulative effect is what we are now seeing in the M-E.

Canada stood up at the UN yesterday and declared that the organization was in effect "useless" -- too focused on itself and "process" without any concrete solutions. I agree and wish Canada would withdraw. The UN is an organization that sanctions "evil" by careless omission - and when evil is uncovered - lacks any credibility or resolve to remove the evil. Oil for Food program (Iraq), UN soldiers pimping those they come to relieve (Haiti), Dictators and butchers being appointed to human rights tribunals. Need I go on ....

Pleasing/appeasing your enemies does not buy you their loyalty or friendship.

I conclude by saying that a "crisis" is only a "crisis" if it is either reversible or addressable. And it is these situations that warrant putting the general good before the individual's rights and freedoms. When situations arise such as Zimbabwe - for example - or Syria today, it is beyond crisis - it is in death spiral mode, and in such situations it becomes everyman for himself -- and thus the end of society as a unifying element in people's lives.

MM

MichaelM, the evils of Nazi Germany are not the question here, remember Germany produced men like Goethe, Einstein, Joseph Mohr, Martin Luther, ect.
The flaw was in allowing a charismatic leader to create a CRISES, enlarge upon it, and then use that to step by step erode personal liberties and rights, all in the name of "the common good". Anyone opposed is automatically against good and therefore evil.
Plain and simple rights removed are seldom restored as the central power assumes more and more power unto itelf. Who declares the Crisis ended? and when?
As a historian let me quote Tolstoy: History would be excellent if it were true and perhaps Churchill: History is written by the victors.

".... The flaw was in allowing a charismatic leader to create a CRISES ...."

With all respect - that is a jingoistic explanation of Hitler's "success". Germany - in defeat - refused to recognize that it was in massive defeat and broke(n). Without that mindset in the German people, Hitler's rise would not have succeeded, IMHO.

I know German's cultural record and scientific/engineering achievements full well.

" .... As a historian let me quote Tolstoy: History would be excellent if it were true and perhaps Churchill: History is written by the victors."

The "History" that both your quotes refer to is not immutable ... it may be dictated by "victors" and enscribed by "novelists" but when the shooting and shouting is over - the outcome and consequences are "reality" and "fact" --- history that "isn't the truth" and fails to account for the reality and facts that people see with their own eyes (East Germany after WW2 for example) ... that sort of history has a way of being disowned over time.

The more eye witnesses to history there are -- the harder it is to outright lie about events. But I grant - that kind of lie does happen - but such a lie has nothing to do with "rights" and "freedoms" - such a lie is only possible when the people want to believe the lie (as Germany post 1918 proves) .... and for further example: the encirclement of the Egyptian Army by the Israelis in the Yom Kippur war. Israel was persuaded by Dr. Kissinger to let the Egyptian army withdraw ... allowing President Sadat to claim victory ...which the Egyptian people wanted to believe in.

Some disenchanted people make much of their rights and freedoms in a democracy ..... their glass is always half-empty ...... yet they willingly throw them away or compromise their privacy and freedom with Facebook and Twitter ... etc. Should I take these people's concerns too seriously ...? NBL

England surrendered some rights and freedoms during WW2 .... did they return ...? I put it to you that nothing returns exactly the same ..... the world England entered in 1946 was very different from 1939 ... and from 1914 even moreso. It is claimed that there is more video surveillance in the UK than any other country ...
is that a factor in lost rights and freedoms ...? Or is it typical British practicality - exploiting fully a new technology?

MM

On a more grounded note, Christopher Speer was the Special Forces medic than Omar Khadr - the boy Jihadi - killed with a grenade in Af'stan.

Concurrent with Khadr's return to Canada - a scholarship fund has been established (by Canadians) for Speer's kids.

Speer Kids' Fund | Indiegogo

MM

MichaelM, Methinks we an impasse have. Had the Third Reich written the history of WWII i think an entirely different cast of criminals would have been tried with a totally different set of "Evils" perpetrated on the world. Much as Ramses II wrote the history of his victory at Kadesh or the US wrote the history of the Indians and the atrocities they perpetrated on the poor white settlers.
We will never agree on the suspenson of Liberty (try George Orwell's book) "Freedom is Slavery". As you said nothing is ever restored completely, rights and freedoms are slowly eroded over time if we allow any one or organization to cross that hard-line for some Crises or other
I do understand your points and admit they have some validity. Much as Rome appointed a dictator to deal with a crises who was then expected to step down from absolute power and return to his farm. Did not quite happen that way as I recall

"... Had the Third Reich written the history of WWII i think an entirely different cast of criminals would have been tried with a totally different set of "Evils" perpetrated on the world..."

Interesting to "speculate" on that, Mike, but it was never, ever going to happen. The numbers - Production and Production to GDP - don't lie.

Country 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
Austria 24 27 27 29 27 28 29 12
France[1] 186 199 164 130 116 110 93 101
Germany 351 384 387 412 417 426 437 310
Italy[2] 141 151 147 144 145 137 117 92
Japan[3] 169 184 192 196 197 194 189 144
Soviet Union359 366 417 359 274 305 362 343
British Isles 284 287 316 344 353 361 346 331
USA 800 869 943 1,094 1,2351,399 1,499 1,474
Allied Total 1,629 1,600 1,331 1,596 1,862 2,065 2,363 2,341
Axis Total: 685 746 845 911 902 895 826 466
Allied/Axis 2.38 2.15 1.58 1.75 2.06 2.31 2.86 5.02
GDP

[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II}

MM

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/axis-alliance-doomed-failure-outset-31460-2.html

MichaelM, Thank God and all the soldiers who fought against the Nazis but any data can be manipulated and given any spin wanted. There are those who truely believe the hollocaust never happened, books have been written and data produced. There was a recent thread on this forum in which a few stated that the German concentration camps were really just work camps. The Japanese still teach a very sanitized (from their viewpoint) version of what Japanese troops did and did not do in China and elsewhere. I was a personal witness to the manner in which the American news media slanted reporting of the Vietnam War until we somehow "lost". Very Slippery stuff this history

"Very Slippery stuff this history"

Sure is ....

MM

And now Kuwait is starting to go ........ pear shaped:

Kuwaiti ruler dissolves parliament, setting up new elections; Islamists poised to win again

Remind me again why you want to depend of these guys for your hydrocarbons ....

MM
Proud Canadian

michaelmaltby said:

Remind me again why you want to depend of these guys for your hydrocarbons ....

MM
Proud Canadian

Click to expand...

Very good question. That's a question the majority of the free world should be asking. If we could collectively put our resources and brains together, we could send the oil producing nations into bankruptcy.

".... for the Taliban, the announcement of an end date has directed their focus. For now the they are waiting patiently, doing what they can to prepare the ground for the moments after ISAF has gone; adopting tactics to sow dissent and distrust of the ruling government among the populace ...."

Canadians took over the mentoring role in Af'stan for the ANA and were so confident ..... but now everyone they deal with is suspect..... Richard Johnson has covered this conflict with great prose and a great artist's eye and sketch book:

Getting out of Afghanistan | Kandahar Journal | World | News | National Post

MM
Proud Canadian

No comment:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2MWom1i_sY

MM
Proud Canadian

Was going to butt-out but: The Mid-east contains mostly "sweet, light" crude oils. Such crudes require little refining. As the quality of the crude declines it requires more and more refining. Canada does not have oil as such but vast fields of "Tar Sand" which with effort can, with difficulty, be made into crude oil. MichaelM and I had this discussion in another post. It comes down to a question of money. When the Mid-east can produce a barrel of sweet crude at the well head for about $1.25 US they can shut down any competition.
As of Sep 2011: Our wonderful Canadian friends(thank you MichaelM with all my heart) are our #1 supplier at 2324 Tbbls per day; but the Saudis have jumped to #2 at 1465 Tbbls per day; Mexico is now at #3 providing 1099 Tbbls per day; Venezuela dropped to #4 providing 759 Tbbls per day. Iraq still provides a respectable 403 Tbbls per day; Kuwait provides 145 Tbbls per day; Chad at 74 Tbbls and Oman at 72 Tbbls per day.
Could the US survive without any Mid-East oil? Yes, we could but it would cost dearly

"... Could the US survive without any Mid-East oil? Yes, we could but it would cost dearly..."

.... with all those costs staying at home in the North American economy and more fully utilizing refining infrastructure in the U.S. -- already bought and paid for.

MM

What the sentencing judge judge said to the jihadi Shoe Bomber:

snopes.com: Judge William Young -- Shoe Bomber Sentencing

MM

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/lest-we-forget-october-23-1983-a-34491.html

h/t EvanGilder

October 23, 1983 was a foreshadowing of what was to come .... a shot across the bows of western power (america) and culture (france -- remember, this is Lebanon -- Paris of the ME). Rules of engagement, so-to-speak.

MM

Good Stuff MichaelM, Thanks for the posts

michaelmaltby said:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/lest-we-forget-october-23-1983-a-34491.html

h/t EvanGilder

October 23, 1983 was a foreshadowing of what was to come .... a shot across the bows of western power (america) and culture (france -- remember, this is Lebanon -- Paris of the ME). Rules of engagement, so-to-speak.

MM

Click to expand...

It was definitely the shapes of things to come. I was on delayed entry enlistment at the time, and it was a sobering reminder that the world was a dangerous place.

Horses and Bayonets ....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cMcB9na3w


MM