Defeat of the Luftwaffe

[Gixxerman]

what, you mean like the russian did

OK Ratsel, go ahead show me when where the Russians attempted the systematic extermination of the German people.

Nobody treated the German people the way the nazis treated several specific 'peoples'.

Be serious quit trying to whitewash Hitler his gang using Stalin his gang.

 

[Ratsel]

OK Ratsel, go ahead show me when where the Russians attempted the systematic extermination of the German people.

Nobody treated the German people the way the nazis treated several specific 'peoples'.

Be serious quit trying to whitewash Hitler his gang using Stalin his gang.

I'm trying to whitewash Hitler?... are you for real? seriously? If you don't know what the Russians did as they marched into berlin, I can't help you.
But thanks for the good laugh.

 

[Jenisch]

Be serious quit trying to whitewash Hitler his gang using Stalin his gang.

I don't think his intention is this. The problem is that since the Soviets were among the victorius, and the apologists of the USSR are very numerous in humanities, the space for their total disrespect of the Soviet victims using comparisons with Hitler is large, and definately very immoral. They commonly justify Stalin's crimes just because they are not based in systematic extermination. However, this is not necessarily truth, because the Holodomor is still an open question. And anyway, millions died in conditions quiet similar than the Nazis, like in the train carts used in the deportations.

Having said that, I was surprise with this declaration from Putin about Stalin in 2009:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlFDfGfKQto=

 

[tyrodtom]

What did the Germans expect from the Russian troops after they had beat the Nazi armies back out of their land, and saw with their own eyes the evidence of the atrotcities the Nazis had commited ? I'm not just talking about the deathcamps the over run in Poland, but the wasted villages and cities in the Ukrane and Belorussia.

The Nazis knew the brutality they'd dealed out to the Russians was going to be returned, that's why they fought to the bitter end, they knew for them there was no future.
The Russian soldier didn't differentiate between Nazi and German.

 

[parsifal]

Id say the Russian oppression was more arbitrary and unpredictable. I'd say the german oppression was more methodical and thorough, but more targetted.

At the end of the day why would i pass a harsher judgement on the germans over the russians? It has to do with the social maturity of the two states. russians under stalin, and before that the Tsars had known nothing else other than brutality and oppression. Life was always cheap in Russia. In many ways their behaviour, whilst reprehensible was at least understandable. Russians had never known anything different as a society. They behaved as they had been treated themselves.

The Germans have no such defence. They were amongst the most refined, cultured and priveleged of the western societies. Unlike the russians, who had known nothing better in their modern history, the germans had known tolerance and freedom, knew that prejudice and brutality was wrong, and possessed the educational base in their socieites to make that call. As a society they consciously forfeited all that. They chose the low road, by conscious choice. thats what they wanted, and therein lies a crime peerless in recent European History. Its a crime that to this day robs the German state of any moral traction. Despite the death of Nazism for more than 70 years, its a legacy they simply cannot rid themselves of. As far as im concerned, germany was, and always will be a morally bankrupt state that can never be allowed to forget its past..... I am not referring to the people, the current generation is blameless. i am referring to the concept that is Germany. no matter how hard it tries, it will always be tainted by that spectre

Both the russian and german societies failed the basic tests of human rights in the first half of the 20th century. But of the two, the german failure was by far the greatest. Not by reason of the extent of their crime, but by reason of the fact that they had the greater capacity to choose, and they chose poorly.

 

[Ratsel]

As far as im concerned, germany was, and always will be a morally bankrupt state that can never be allowed to forget its past.....

That's a pretty bold statement. Underlying agenda perhaps?

 

[parsifal]

Of course. The agenda is that we never allow such crimes to occur ever again. You do that by never forgetting the past. This is particularly true for the Germans, who by choice stepped outside the norms of decncy to pursue dreams of world domination

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

what, you mean like the russian did

Eye for ane eye, huh?

 

[Gixxerman]

I'm trying to whitewash Hitler?... are you for real? seriously? If you don't know what the Russians did as they marched into berlin, I can't help you.

I have a good idea of what went on as Russia marched westwards into Germany - and not just into Berlin.
But for you to pretend this is equivelant to the death camps and the attempt to wipe out entire various groups of peoples in Europe is quite wrong.

There has never been a modern industrial death factory system anything like the nazis created.


Now I am interested, genuinely, if you are not 'whitewashing Hitler'.............why the heck would you make such a transperantly absurd statement?

(just to refresh memories I said - no-one else acted towards Germans in the same way as the nazis acted to so many others, huh?
and you said what, you mean like the russian did )

As tyrodtom correctly says, the Russians on regaining their territory saw exactly what the nazis had done and not surprisingly made little distinction between 'ordinary German soldiers' and naziz/SS/Wafen SS/local corps acting under German instruction.
But for all that the revenge of those Russian 'ordinary soldiers' is not comparable to the planned industrial slaughter machine the nazis created and operated for as long as they could.

I also think parsifal makes a good point......and as tales from the time illustrate it too was something the nazis were well aware of and tried to use to hide their plans
(I am thinking of the camp guard quoted in 'The World at War' series who told a woman who suspected she was about to be led to her death 'Madam, do you think we are barbarians?').

Being a 'centre of European culture' (as Germany undoubtedly was/is) was certainly no safeguard against the plain evil nazi ethos......which turned out to be about as anti-German as it is possible to get, considering the stunning degree of ruin misery they brought to Germany the German people.

Let us not forget amongst their first victims were the German disabled, of all ages, male female whether physically or mentally disabled.
They fell on destroyed the weakest most vulnerable German people first.

This tone here of preferring to ignore all of that to start diverting the topic to 'well what about Stalin.....' is not only to miss the point but I can only wonder just what 'agenda' is at work.

Stalin is gone, so is Mao and so is Hitler.
Thank God.
There's no need to continually act as if discussing the record of one is to go easy on the other(s).

 

[Tante Ju]

OK Ratsel, go ahead show me when where the Russians attempted the systematic extermination of the German people.

Nobody treated the German people the way the nazis treated several specific 'peoples'.

Be serious quit trying to whitewash Hitler his gang using Stalin his gang.

Some good reading for you... Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far as im concerned, germany was, and always will be a morally bankrupt state that can never be allowed to forget its past..... I am not referring to the people, the current generation is blameless. i am referring to the concept that is Germany. no matter how hard it tries, it will always be tainted by that spectre[

We are aware that is your opinion.. disturbingly often expressed I would say. But IMHO German guilt in World War II is not to be used by other nations to forget about their guilt as well. I suspect agenda of many who go great lenght about discussing German guilt is really about not discussing their own guilt. They want to forget their guilt, and by talk only about German guilt. Everyone should deal with their own past. Germany did. It needs no externals from countries who did NOT deal with their past to give 'lessons' about something they did not learn themselves.

As for the concept of Germany, German people need no allowance and no approval from anyone else to exist in the country of their own. The concept of Germany is a sovereign, unified country of many nations that exist and governed by German law and firmly held principles of constitution.

This is particularly true for the Germans, who by choice stepped outside the norms of decncy to pursue dreams of world domination

Sorry, you are factual wrong.. Germany, even under Hitler had no plans of 'world domination'. Maybe the Kaiser had, or more like he wanted a 'place under the sun' too. The 'secret nazi world domination plans' was a the propaganda brainchild of FDR administration, who tried to convince American people to convince war, and produced a number of faked - allegad nazi - plans for the public that showed South America was targeted to colonize by Hitler.

Also if you want to better understand who really had 'pursue dreams of world domination' I suggest to study this map careful:

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Don't let this get out of hand. We are watching...

 

[Gixxerman]

Some good reading for you... Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It may surprise you but this is not news to me.......and despite the incredible level of this crime it is still not the same as a deliberately constructed industrial death complex like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka where the expressed intent is the complete extermination of entire peoples.

 

[Tante Ju]

What do you think Holodomor was about?

 

[stona]

This is particularly true for the Germans, who by choice stepped outside the norms of decncy to pursue dreams of world domination

They are hardly the only nation to have done that,though "world domination" was not really a nazi objective. Even a nation as young as yours should be wary of casting the first stone. There are many less than edifying episodes in most of our histories,including attempts at genocide,the use of slave labour and many more.Do I need to go on?
The kind of savagery perpetrated by the nazis is part of human nature,not specifically German.
I can see no conceivable reason why a young German today should feel responsible for,or guilty about,the sins of his grandfathers.
Cheers
Steve

 

[renrich]

Sea Lion was not a plan that many in the German High Command believed in, including Hitler. If Hitler wanted to "win" the war or at least prolong it, he should have, in 1940, have first taken Malta and then concentrate on defeating Britain in N Africa and making the Med an Axis Lake. Close the Suez Canal and take the oil resources in the Middle East and above all. Do not declare war on the USA in December, 1941, and do not invade the USSR in 1941.

 

[Gixxerman]

What do you think Holodomor was about?

I think it was the criminally deliberate consigning of a class of people to starvation and death as the Russians preferred to industrialise rather than give resources to mitigate a famine (and yes I am aware of the outrageous murderous demands the Soviet state made on the starving to supply foodstuffs and yes I will agree that this may - accepting that it is subject to debate - qualify as an act of genocide against some of the Ukrainian people).

It also has its equivelant in WW2 in the way the nazi regime systematically starved people on numerous occasions on a large scale too.

...... but it is still not the same Auschwitz etc etc.

Also if you want to better understand who really had 'pursue dreams of world domination' I suggest to study this map careful:

Whilst I agree that the British Empire is dotted with some criminally disgraceful incidents and terrible crimes, on balance and overall I think most would prefer their chances as a foreign person or a Jew under British rule than nazi.
Every day of the week.

.....and again, nothing the British ever did compares in any serious way to Auschwitz etc etc.

Not even the Boer war concentration camps.

 

[stona]

do not invade the USSR in 1941.

But that was the whole point of the nazi political agenda of the time. This was the primary objective of their war,not the Western Front. If it made sense to seperate the ideology of nazi Germany from its political and military objectives I would agree with you but it simply can't be done. They were waging an ideological and racial war on the Eastern Front,they didn't really want a fight in the West. That was forced on them by what they saw as Britain's (and her allies) incalcitrance.

They tried to take Malta and failed. They tried to defeat Britain in North Africa and failed again. To paraphrase another post above "they had plans" for this. I think we deserve some credit for thwarting those plans and denying Germany these objectives. Sometimes I think that Britain's effort in those crucial first three years are minimised with the passing of time.
Could or should they have tried harder? Maybe,but Germany only had a limited number of resources and couldn't win everywhere.
Cheers
Steve
By "Britain" I always mean Britain and her Commonwealth/Empire allies,I'm not daft enough to imagine that we could have done it without them.

 

[Ratsel]

I admire you Gixxerman, you refrain from lumping all German people together, whereas PARSIFAL dosn't make a distinction, kudos Sir.
I will add how ever, there are much more worse things then death (crimes by othe nations, which I will not say in this forum). Anyways, excellent discussion Gentlemen, I'm learning alot.

 

[parsifal]

We are aware that is your opinion.. disturbingly often expressed I would say

.

Who is "we" and why is it disturbing to remember the past and learn from it. Perhaps you find my views disturbing because they are views you find hard to listen to or accept. Why is it disturbing for me to express views that you dont agree with? would you prefer a censored forum, where only views that conform to your own are allowed to be aired? now that is a disturbing thought because it harks back to the very things i have spoken about.....and they revolve around the Nazi debasement of human values and the basic freedoms we have all come to enjoy and be accustomed with .

But IMHO German guilt in World War II is not to be used by other nations to forget about their guilt as well.

Im glad you qualify this as your opinion. Trying to shield german war guilt by dressing up the alleged crimes of other nations and then saying because they did something that excuses the germans. It doesnt. in law, as well as in the application of basic human rights, the carrying out of one crime is not erased or cancelled out by another. The only exception to that, and its a biggy, is if a nation or person is taking steps to defend themselves from anothers agression. Germany was not defensding itself, other nations were. After the war the germans were found guilty as a nation of waging aggressive war. That was a precondition to many things, including the indictment of many Germans on war crimes. its why other nations, like the british could never have its personnel indicted for war crimes under the legislation as it existed in 1945. The british were not guilty of waging aggressivfe war, therefore, none of its personnel could be indicted for war crimes under international law as it existed at that time.

If two people are guilty of a crime, then they are both guilty. Both are not exonerated because the other one did it as well.

But nobody embarked on a spree of national criminality to the same extent as Germany. There were nations that in their own way were as murderous as the germans, like some elements of the hungarian regime for example. none approached the Germans in terms of the scale or malevolence. Not even the Soviets. The Soviets committed their crimes from the position of social immaturity

I suspect agenda of many who go great lenght about discussing German guilt is really about not discussing their own guilt.

In the case of the british and the commonwealth, there was no case to answer under international law. none of the commonwealth nations or the british were guilty of waging aggressive war, so there was no case to answer outside the national criminal codes. This is why the many attempts to say the british committed a crime with their area bombing strategies is just so much hot air. it was not contrary to any military code, or convention (it is now, i admit, but not in 1945). The british did not target their own people, or people who had surrendered to them. There was not the systemic abuse of morals that there was in germany. where criminal acts occurred, it was within the ability of the criminal justice system in each country to deal with that crime. The Germans had descended to the point in their moral code could no longer function as amodern, moral state, because the state itself was rotten to the core.

They want to forget their guilt, and by talk only about German guilt. Everyone should deal with their own past. Germany did. It needs no externals from countries who did NOT deal with their past to give 'lessons' about something they did not learn themselves.

Germany did not deal with their war guilt. thats the problem. It was dealt with for them. by the very people you want out.

I cant answer for every nation, but i can answer for germany, and I can answer for my own country. These are the facts, Germany was found after the war to have waged an aggressive war, and from that to have carried out numerous attrocities, including genocide. thats why other nations have intervened with germany since 1945. Left to their own devices they proved to be decidedly unhealthy to the well being of nations that surrounded them. So, whilst you may be expressing the heartfelt wishes of many, there are many more, who know that Germany after the war unconditionally surrendered, but only after they had forced many nations around them to expend much blood and treasure making sure that the german idea of "dealing with their past" did not raise its ugly head again. The German idea of "dealing with their past" was to be xenophobic in the extreme, and involved the employment of concepts like genocide, the abandonment of leagal or moral codes, to murder anyone they did not like, without trial, to wage wars of aggression and attempt to subjugate anyone they thought to be useful or in their way. Thats why Germany was dealt with in the way that it was after the war. Their wartime actions cost them the right to self determination or self defence for many years, and to this day affects their moral image. In the eyes of the law, the crimes have been dealt with, so in a legal sense Germany's debt to the world has been paid. But from the moral standpoint, the Germans have never been able to cast off that terrible stigma that attached itself to the national psyche after the Nazis. and neither should it. I have 50 million reasons for saying that. we should never forget what was done. forgive yes, forget, never

In the case of my country, I would be the last to try and claim perfection or pure innocence. But my country was never guilty as a nation of waging an aggressive war, it was never guilty of genocide, or murder on a national scale. I am sure that there are things we could have done better, but there is no comparison between the moral position reached by my country, and that which the germans reached by 1945. sorry, but you argument to try and lift Germany out of its dilemma by comparing it to my country is just laughable

As for the concept of Germany, German people need no allowance and no approval from anyone else to exist in the country of their own. The concept of Germany is a sovereign, unified country of many nations that exist and governed by German law and firmly held principles of constitution.

I agree that germany has paid a price for its indiscretions, but a memory still remains, not least within the German state itself. No nation exists on itself, or by itself, we are all interconnected. German guilt and moral dilemma affects us all, not just the germans.

Sorry, you are factual wrong.. Germany, even under Hitler had no plans of 'world domination'. Maybe the Kaiser had, or more like he wanted a 'place under the sun' too. The 'secret nazi world domination plans' was a the propaganda brainchild of FDR administration, who tried to convince American people to convince war, and produced a number of faked - allegad nazi - plans for the public that showed South America was targeted to colonize by Hitler

.

I disagree. Certainly people like FDR and churchill played the "aggression" charge for all it was worth, but many people, including many scholars have named germany as the wager of aggression at that time. In a legal sense, your position is a nonsense....germany was found guilty of waging aggressive war, illegally subjugating many peoples. if the Germans had not been stopped do you honestly believe they would have stopped at the borders of Europe???? Even within the context of wartime planning, they had serious (if rather vague) ideas about conquests in the Atlantic, Afric, the subcontinent and the middle east that I know of. they had designs inhto South America. German appetite for conquest proved bigger than their means, but if they had the means they would not have hesitated to continue their wars of conquest

Also if you want to better understand who really had 'pursue dreams of world domination' I suggest to study this map careful:

There is no comparison between the British empire and the Nazis. you have got to be kidding. In the case of my country, there was no feelings of subjugation or domination. we were a nation of free men, wilingly offering our services to the home country in its hour of need. That was also the case in South Africa New Zealan and Canada. Other parts of the empire were less free, but neither did they exist as nations. moreover, Britains empi8re was the product of several hundred years of colonilaism, applied at a time when it was not seen as distasteful or illegal. Applying the standards of International law to an entity that existed for many years prior is just a little too cute for my taste I am afraid, and completely irrelevant to the issue I might add.

 

[Gixxerman]

I admire you Gixxerman, you refrain from lumping all German people together, whereas PARSIFAL dosn't make a distinction, kudos Sir.

I have some German friends I am very very fond of, I wouldn't dream of it Ratsel
(and we have had some very interesting discussions about the war as one in particular was very close to his grandfather who served on the eastern front - mine was in the western front).

It's maybe a little like the 'schizophrenic split' one has when you have to make with English parentage with Irish and Scottish heritage in your background.
The concept of 'some English yes but certainly not all English'.
I am well aware of the dreadful side of English history where the Scot Irish is concerned but I am of all 3........and I even have some continental near relatives too - a grandmother - from the northern Italian region.