Design the Garand to be new

[fastmongrel]

replacing the magazine if he had acquired a spare).

There were no spare magazines. The only way to acquire a spare would be stealing one from someone else's rifle or removing one from a dead comrades rifle.

Changing a magazine on the No4 LE is not a trivial matter you have to pull the very stiff magazine release catch while pulling the tight fitting magazine out, a two handed job. Then you need to find your spare magazine which needs a good push and a slap to make sure it's locked in the very stiff magazine catch. Then as you went to all the trouble of stealing your spare you need to put it carefully back into a pouch or pocket. Then you can work the action and squeeze the trigger.

Your squad mates meanwhile open the bolt pull a charger out of pouch or bandolier load five or ten and have probably loaded another ten and fired them while your still fiddling with your spare magazine.

I can't say about the SMLE as I have never tried to swap a magazine on one but I bet it's the same.

 

[The Basket]

The Garand Ping is an old wife's tale and about as real and relevant as the Loch Ness Monster.

The Lee Enfield was certainly probably the fastest bolt action but it's years behind a Garand. For sustained fire the Garand is simply much faster.

In ideal conditions but using the stripper clip in sub zero temps with frosty hands...no and throw in panic and fear and you gonna fumble.

Plus it's very tiring to keep on firing a Enfield over time. And needs fine motor muscle skills. Garand is much much easier.

A bolt action rifle is inferior to any semi auto. Full stop.

 

[tyrodtom]

There were no spare magazines. The only way to acquire a spare would be stealing one from someone else's rifle or removing one from a dead comrades rifle.

Changing a magazine on the No4 LE is not a trivial matter you have to pull the very stiff magazine release catch while pulling the tight fitting magazine out, a two handed job. Then you need to find your spare magazine which needs a good push and a slap to make sure it's locked in the very stiff magazine catch. Then as you went to all the trouble of stealing your spare you need to put it carefully back into a pouch or pocket. Then you can work the action and squeeze the trigger.

Your squad mates meanwhile open the bolt pull a charger out of pouch or bandolier load five or ten and have probably loaded another ten and fired them while your still fiddling with your spare magazine.

I can't say about the SMLE as I have never tried to swap a magazine on one but I bet it's the same.

 

[tyrodtom]

I've got a Lee Enfield No4, when I push the magazine catch, the mag falls out.
And goes back in with no extra effort.
Maybe the No4 you tried was just stiff, from sitting a long time.
But mine hasn't been shot for at least 5 or 6 years either.

The only problem I see is maybe if you were wearing gloves, you might have a problem with that small mag release up in the trigger guard.
Loading it by stripper clips isn't very quick either, the strippers only hold 5 rounds each.

 

[special ed]

That old wives tail has been around, however the old veterans say the noise of battle drowns out the clip ejection just as it does the sound of the bolt opening and closing during battle. In fact I was told because of battle confusion, there were times some riflemen were seen with the clip ejected and still trying to pull the trigger until called to by a buddy. So, if one could still try to shoot not hearing the clip ejection or not feeling a recoil, the battle must have been intense. I had a supervisor I first worked for in 1964 who I thought was too young to have been in WW2. He would not normally discuss the war unless drinking. Once, while watching an old cowboy movie on TV he said, "Hell, bullets don't zing when they go by, they pop." I told him you have to be pretty close to hear that. He said, "Every German in Belgium was trying to kill me." That's when I knew where he had been.

 

[special ed]

The .30 Carbine round would today be considered more of a magnum pistol for .30 rather than a rifle round. For a while Ruger offered their single action revolver in .30 Carbine.

 

[tyrodtom]

That old wives tail has been around, however the old veterans say the noise of battle drowns out the clip ejection just as it does the sound of the bolt opening and closing during battle. In fact I was told because of battle confusion, there were times some riflemen were seen with the clip ejected and still trying to pull the trigger until called to by a buddy. So, if one could still try to shoot not hearing the clip ejection or not feeling a recoil, the battle must have been intense. I had a supervisor I first worked for in 1964 who I thought was too young to have been in WW2. He would not normally discuss the war unless drinking. Once, while watching an old cowboy movie on TV he said, "Hell, bullets don't zing when they go by, they pop." I told him you have to be pretty close to hear that. He said, "Every German in Belgium was trying to kill me." That's when I knew where he had been.

I've read that they found muzzle loaders recovered on the battlefield at Gettysburg that had as many as a dozen unfired charges in the barrel.

 

[fastmongrel]

I've got a Lee Enfield No4, when I push the magazine catch, the mag falls out.
And goes back in with no extra effort.
Maybe the No4 you tried was just stiff, from sitting a long time.
But mine hasn't been shot for at least 5 or 6 years either.

The only problem I see is maybe if you were wearing gloves, you might have a problem with that small mag release up in the trigger guard.
Loading it by stripper clips isn't very quick either, the strippers only hold 5 rounds each.

Your No4 will be at an absolute minimum 69 years old and probably been beaten half to death by Bubba. A No4 magazine should be snug fitting (what is known as a virgin fit) with no possibility of rattling or moving when operating the bolt. As a rimmed round .303 needs a solid platform for smooth loading.

Your No4 is worn and in the British Army would have been seen by the Armourer pronto. Bubba the gun fiddler will not have a clue how to handle a No4.

 

[GrauGeist]

1. It is reported (this is maybe an old tall tale, but maybe not) that at times the Germans (or Japanese) could hear and/or see the en-bloc clip being ejected, and thus knew that they could rush that GI while he was getting another clip out of his pouch and inserting

Hard to hear a "ping" at a distance when your ears feel like they are stuffed with cotton accompanied by the sound of a waterfall inside your head...

It makes for dramatic scenes in the movies, though.

 

[fastmongrel]

Hard to hear a "ping" at a distance when your ears feel like they are stuffed with cotton accompanied by the sound of a waterfall inside your head...

It makes for dramatic scenes in the movies, though.

I can still remember the time I forgot to put my ear plugs in on the machine gun range. BRRRrrrrrrrrmmmm.......eeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhh. Next day it was the internal Maracas sounds.

 

[GrauGeist]

I can still remember the time I forgot to put my ear plugs in on the machine gun range. BRRRrrrrrrrrmmmm.......eeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhh. Next day it was the internal Maracas sounds.

Notice how it transitions from a dull roar to a high-pitched whine, like from an old AM radio set?

 

[tyrodtom]

Your No4 will be at an absolute minimum 69 years old and probably been beaten half to death by Bubba. A No4 magazine should be snug fitting (what is known as a virgin fit) with no possibility of rattling or moving when operating the bolt. As a rimmed round .303 needs a solid platform for smooth loading.

Your No4 is worn and in the British Army would have been seen by the Armourer pronto. Bubba the gun fiddler will not have a clue how to handle a No4.

One thing I left out, that magazine had 10 rounds in it.
Plus I've got a scope on the rifle, can't use stripper clips, that magazine has been on and off many times.
I've owned it about 25 years, took several deer and wild pigs with it.
Not the most accurate rifle I've ever shot, but close.
The magazine isn't loose, I just don't have the problem you did getting a magazine out of a No4.
I've got 3 magazines for it, the only one that's difficult is a short one modified to hold 5 rounds.
I'm a Bubba the gun fiddler, for about the last 50 years.

 

[The Basket]

The Lee Metford had a chained magazine and was supposed to be swappable with a spare but didn't happen.

There is a video on YouTube about the EM-2 where the Garand gets off 43 rounds in a minute and the Lee 27.

The Italian BM59 kept in service until 1990 so that is a long life for the Garand.

 

[ODonovan]

I've fired a M-14 full auto.
Besides full auto wearing barrels , a M-14 just wasn't heavy enough to fire a 7.62 x51 full auto, it was about uncontrollable for most men.
I qualified expert with everything, M-14, M16, M60. except the .45
Good thing I didn't have to fire the M-14 on auto to qualify.
Maybe if I'd weighed more, or trained more with the M-14 on auto I could have done better, but it was just a waste of metal on full auto.

I had just the opposite experience with the 14. When I first used it, I was about 5'6"/130 lbs. Our instructor told us to fire three round bursts and start with a clean target. Fire one burst, aiming at the lower left corner of the target. Watch what direction the rounds "climbed." Each person was a bit different, based on height and strength. Do that a couple times to get an idea where the second and third rounds would go, then always aim so your second round would hit close to dead center. After a while, we could all get the second rounds within a couple inches (or closer) of the bulls-eye every time and our three round groups even started getting closer together. I was "lucky" I wasn't very strong as most of my "climb" was vertical. About half the time, I could put three rounds in the targets' 1) right hip, 2) right/center torso, and 3) left shoulder. (This was as seen from the targets' PoV, as if they were enemies facing me, as the muzzle climbed up and to my right.) I would get two of three in the target, the remainder of the time.

That old wives tail has been around, however the old veterans say the noise of battle drowns out the clip ejection just as it does the sound of the bolt opening and closing during battle. In fact I was told because of battle confusion, there were times some riflemen were seen with the clip ejected and still trying to pull the trigger until called to by a buddy. So, if one could still try to shoot not hearing the clip ejection or not feeling a recoil, the battle must have been intense. I had a supervisor I first worked for in 1964 who I thought was too young to have been in WW2. He would not normally discuss the war unless drinking. Once, while watching an old cowboy movie on TV he said, "Hell, bullets don't zing when they go by, they pop." I told him you have to be pretty close to hear that. He said, "Every German in Belgium was trying to kill me." That's when I knew where he had been.

I never heard a "pop" when a round went over me. The only times I ever heard bullets coming that close was when they were being fired over my head on purpose. They were rifle rounds and were going by about six feet above me. They made a "whoosh" sound, almost as if someone was saying "whew" very fast. The rounds were obviously sub-sonic by then. If you were close enough for them to still be supersonic when they passed, you'd get miniature "sonic booms" and that would be the "pop," but FUUUUUUH, you'd have to be really close to the person firing to hear that, in most cases.

I respectfully decline the opportunity to experience that, because that would mean the guy firing would be close enough to actually HIT me. If you need me, I'll be about a half mile in the other direction, thankyouverymuch.


-Irish

 

[ThomasP]

I do not know if any of you feel this should really make a difference in the redesign of the M1 Garand vs M1 carbine, but I have read several times in post-WWII studies that the northern Europe US infantry units spent 90% of their combat time in urban built-up areas - where visibility was an average of less than 200 yds.

 

[The Basket]

The problem is that the American board that picks rifles were all about long range musketry and Buffington rear sights.

Turns out most soldiers couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo under combat conditions.

So something like the SKS made more sense as a combat rifle.

The British after ww1 and to ww2 made no effort at all to move towards semi auto rifles after the the Farquhar-Hill and the French didn't move quickly after the RSC 1918. So very much inertia so that they got caught out in 1940.

 

[special ed]

Once in the office, a discussion about a home defense weapon began and the supervisor (post 25) walked by and was asked what gun he owned. He said a .22 pistol. When someone commented that wouldn't stop anyone, he said, "If you know where to hit them it will".

 

[SaparotRob]

I've read the debate about large v. small caliber weapons for home defense. I like a small caliber for accuracy and not blowing through the "target", several walls and a couple of neighbors. I live in an apartment.
My Marlin lever action (see? It's a cowboy gun, not an assault rifle.) is chambered for 44 mag. I can sorta' kinda' get a round in the general direction of the county that my target is in.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello The Basket,

While the tipping bolt of the SVT may have been copied more often than the external op rod and rotating bolt of the Garand, the bottom line is that the SVT-40 was a much inferior rifle as it was implemented. The SKS and FAL which use the same system as SVT are much better implementations.
About the only really superior feature of the SVT over the Garand was its scope mounting system.

As mentioned before, the barrel shroud with flash suppressor was an accuracy issue that could not be corrected. It was pinned to the barrel / handguards. The handguards were also not isolated and influenced barrel vibrations.
The operating cycle is extremely violent. This is the reason that the chamber is fluted. Spent cases are often mangled which isn't of great concern to a military rifle, but I have always wondered how the excessive power through a gas system influences barrel vibrations and accuracy.
The long thin receiver has the locking recess fairly far away from the chamber. This puts a lot of bending stress on the receiver.
The trigger group needs to snap into place on the underside of the receiver. I have seen several rifles in which this could not easily be done. A hammer might have helped, but that isn't a reasonable thing to expect to need. It can be corrected by filing some clearance, but that isn't saying much for the design / durability / parts interchangeability for this gun.

Hello GreenKnight121,

While the Garand clip ejection does make a distinctive sound, I don't know how serious this is when there is more than one Garand rifleman. Another thing is that with a loaded clip handy, it only takes about two seconds or perhaps even less to reload.
The en-bloc clip makes for very fast reloads.

Ejecting a partial clip is no big deal if you are doing it manually and it won't fly out of the gun if you put your hand over the action. Loading a partial clip is also no big deal. High power competition shooters do it all the time.

As for ballistics between the .276 Pedersen and .30-06, I believe you may be comparing the older 173 grain round rather than the later war time 152 grain round.

- Ivan.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Gentlemen,

FWIW, the accuracy of a properly tuned No.4 Lee Enfield can actually be quite excellent. Under 1.5 MOA isn't that hard.
The No.1 can also be tuned for pretty good and very comparable accuracy but is a bit more difficult.
There are plenty of Lee Enfields in good condition that were available over the years though I haven't shopped for one recently.
The ones I have encountered tended to be on the long side for headspace which usually isn't hard to correct on a No.4 by swapping for a higher number bolt head. I suppose it can also be done with a No.1 though they aren't nearly as predictable and the thread timing on bolts may not always be the same.
Changing magazines isn't particularly hard. Maybe just a touch harder than for a M14 type because the magazine is shaped differently.

The ping of a Garand clip CAN be heard above gunfire. Just go to a service rifle match where Garands are being used and you can confirm this. Springs vary so some are louder than others.

A bullet doesn't have to be all that close to make a crack or pop as it goes by. If you have ever pulled targets during a service rifle match, you would have experience this as the bullets fly over the pits. You can even tell when the bullet flying over is over YOU rather than you neighbor. That is how we could tell when OUR shooter's target needed to be marked.

- Ivan.