Design the Garand to be new

[The Basket]

Should the Garand be full auto like the AVS-36?
Should it have been stripper clip fed like an SKS?
Should it have a detachable box magazine like a M14?
I like the RSC-1918 and feel the design choices are a bit better perhaps.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Garand has a substantial rate of fire, I would say that being a semi-auto suits it fine.

I like the Enbloc clip over a stripper, like my Mauser used, as when the ammunition is expended, the assembly ejects. Plus, the Enbloc eliminates the process of inserting the clip, pushing the rounds into the internal mag and then removing the stripper before closing the bolt. There is also, on occasion, the case where all the rounds haven't been pushed all the way down, so when removing the stripper, the top round moves upward, blocking the bolt's path - this doesn't happen with the M1.

 

[fastmongrel]

From what I have read the M1 was not quick or cheap to make. Leave the basic design as it is but work out how to build it cheaper a bit like they did with the M1 carbine.

Produce them so fast that by 1944 it's the universal bang stick of the Allies. Hand them out with the rations along with bucket loads of ammo.

 

[SaparotRob]

Dad always tried to ditch his Garand for an M-1 carbine. He hated lugging around the Garand. Being a smart ass kid, I told him that the Garand has better range to which he replied "I couldn't see anything more than 50 feet away".

 

[special ed]

A friend in a model club stood 5ft 3in and weighed 125 pounds in 1944. He came to France shortly after D-day and told us he left his Garand as soon as he found a Carbine no longer used. He carried the Carbine till V-E. It should also be noted the M-14 was basically the M-1 with select fire, i.e. semi or full auto. It was not used full auto in training because of barrel wear.

 

[The Basket]

Very rough but I got

M1 Garand .30-06 muzzle velocity 850m/s bullet weight 10g.

M1 Carbine .30 muzzle velocity 610m/s bullet weight 7g.

So terms of power about same as 44 Magnum so a powerful hand gun or carbine round but weak sauce as a rifle caliber.

That's a lot of swag you're giving up over the Garand.

No fooling as most of the time you're carrying the rifle and not shooting it so can't blame them. And in the rock throwing range then .30 will get job done.

Although maybe .30-06 was simply overpowered.

6.5mm Arisaka or even 6mm Lee Navy would have been enough.

 

[tyrodtom]

I've fired a M-14 full auto.
Besides full auto wearing barrels , a M-14 just wasn't heavy enough to fire a 7.62 x51 full auto, it was about uncontrollable for most men.
I qualified expert with everything, M-14, M16, M60. except the .45
Good thing I didn't have to fire the M-14 on auto to qualify.

Maybe if I'd weighed more, or trained more with the M-14 on auto I could have done better, but it was just a waste of metal on full auto.

 

[The Basket]

I would wager a can of diet coke that a full auto Garand either was planned or got to prototype.

Interesting if anyone can say.

I do say the SVT-40 looks a bit better design.

 

[tyrodtom]

I would wager a can of diet coke that a full auto Garand either was planned or got to prototype.

Interesting if anyone can say.

I do say the SVT-40 looks a bit better design.

I think that pretty well describes the T-20 series, a Garand adapted to a BAR magazine, and had full auto ability.
A thousand or so ordered, but with no Japan invasion it wasn't adopted for service.

 

[tyrodtom]

edit

 

[The Basket]

I think that pretty well describes the T-20 series, a Garand adapted to a BAR magazine, and had full auto ability.
A thousand or so ordered, but with no Japan invasion it wasn't adopted for service.

I guessed that pretty close.

The military could not resist.

Can't beat silly ideas.

 

[AbitNutz]

The Garand on full auto would be uncontrollable, just like the M14 was found to be. A box magazine would be some improvement but not enough to be justified. What should be done was what was originally proposed. Make it in a smaller caliber. The 30-06 was overkill, so to speak, in every sense of the word. The original cartridge was the .276 Pedersen. It was in a 10 round enblock clip. I was superior to the venerable 30-06 in pretty much all battlefield situations. MacArthur killed it on the not unreasonable basis of logistics. He still should have been overruled as the US military proved to able to supply everybody everything everywhere...2020 hindsight.

As far as the 30 Carbine goes. It is very interesting to note that the 30 Carbine was pretty much the only US weapon the Germans captured and used. They disposed of everything else. Also, it was Audie Murphy's weapon of choice throughout the war. On paper it looks like a loser in comparison to a Garand but apparently things are a little different in real life.

 

[The Basket]

I do declare that in certain combat circumstances that the M1 Carbine would be better than the Garand.

Anything below 100m. Trench clearing, jungle, forest, street fighting CQB.

Wasn't aware Germans praise it highly you got a quote on that?

The only issue was magazine. One guy said they would junk old mags as soon as new mags were available. So the mags were not robust.

 

[SaparotRob]

I do declare that in certain combat circumstances that the M1 Carbine would be better than the Garand.

Anything below 100m. Trench clearing, jungle, forest, street fighting CQB.

Wasn't aware Germans praise it highly you got a quote on that?

The only issue was magazine. One guy said they would junk old mags as soon as new mags were available. So the mags were not robust.

Don't forget hedge rows.

 

[SaparotRob]

I forgot how to spell baucage(?)

 

[AbitNutz]

Also, like I said, Audie Murphy used one as his preferred weapon. No doubt a great deal has to do is with weight but how powerful was the 30 kurz?

 

[special ed]

I do not have info at hand but I believe the .30 carbine ammo was packaged in magazines battlefield supplies. The first carbines used 20 round magazines and the later carbines, with bayonet mount, had a magazine catch to allow 30 round magazines. Most early carbines stayed in training units until upgraded, but those in the pictures with Germans are the ones without bayonet lugs and have 20 round mags. In case someone asks, if you use a .30 round mag in an early carbine, recoil shakes it off after a couple of shots.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

I would wager a can of diet coke that a full auto Garand either was planned or got to prototype.

Interesting if anyone can say.

I do say the SVT-40 looks a bit better design.

Hello The Basket,

The SVT-40 in no way compared to the M1 Garand. The accuracy is reasonably comparable for rack grade guns, but the Garand can be substantially improved. The SVT-40 can not. This is why although the SVT-40 could be equipped with a scope, it never took over from the Moisin Nagant bolt actions. The M1C and M1D on the other hand were fairly credible sniper guns considering the low power optics.
The barrel shroud seems to be the main problem with SVT accuracy though that is not to say there are not a bunch of other issues.

Another major issue with the SVT-40 is that its receiver is way too light and by reputation would bend with sustained use. That made it a real B*TCH to reassemble after a while.

As for an ideal caliber, I believe 7 x 57 Mauser is a pretty good compromise for a battle rifle for the time. These days, I believe something smaller might be ideal.

- Ivan.

 

[The Basket]

8mm Kurz is a touch behind the AK 7.62 but ahead of 5.56 NATO.

30 carbine is behind AK-74 5.45 so it's in the grey zone of very weak rifle caliber or very powerful pistol caliber.

So 30 carbine v 8mm Kurz is an easy power win for the Kurz.

M1 Carbine has been considered the American Sturmgewehr or assault rifle which is fair to a point. Not sure if I could argue that point but I see merit.

So certainly offers more bang than say a Thompson at a much lighter weight with greater accuracy.

The SVT design is what copied more than Garand. Short stroke gas piston.if I had a choice of Mosin or SVT then Tokarev me.

In my view 6.5mm Arisaka may have offered the perfect compromise.

 

[GreenKnight121]

The Garand has a substantial rate of fire, I would say that being a semi-auto suits it fine.

I like the Enbloc clip over a stripper, like my Mauser used, as when the ammunition is expended, the assembly ejects. Plus, the Enbloc eliminates the process of inserting the clip, pushing the rounds into the internal mag and then removing the stripper before closing the bolt. There is also, on occasion, the case where all the rounds haven't been pushed all the way down, so when removing the stripper, the top round moves upward, blocking the bolt's path - this doesn't happen with the M1.

I disagree here - for two reasons.

1. It is reported (this is maybe an old tall tale, but maybe not) that at times the Germans (or Japanese) could hear and/or see the en-bloc clip being ejected, and thus knew that they could rush that GI while he was getting another clip out of his pouch and inserting it. A stripper-fed rifle has no such "tell".

2. More importantly, a Brit with his No. 4 Mk. 1 Enfield could easily top off his 10-round magazine any time there was a break in the shooting... using either the 5-round strippers if he had fired off enough or by inserting individual rounds in the magazine (or replacing the magazine if he had acquired a spare).

While the Garand gunner could hand-load rounds into the 8-round en-bloc clip while it was in the rifle, it took both hands and specific technique, and so was very rarely done in combat. He could also eject a partial clip fairly easily... but then he had a partial (if he could find where it had flown upon ejection) until he had the time to hand-load more rounds into it.

To me it just seems like the Enfield system worked better in combat - if the Garand had incorporated a stripper-fed magazine system it would be the perfect weapon in my view.



As for the 30-06... research the .276 Pederson round. That was nearly the caliber of the Garand - it was nearly identical ballistically (it actually had a somewhat flatter trajectory, thus was less critical about range estimation - but at least the same effective range) to the 30-06, but had a lighter recoil... just think about the 6.5x55 Swedish round, or the 6.5 Creedmore, the .270 Remington, etc.

The Garand was also lighter in its .276P form... it had to be strengthened for the more-powerful 30-06 round!