Development of camouflage....

[mikewint]

Terry, surprised you accepted that post from Yulzari: Lyncolne grene is a deep warm olive green. The dyers of Lincoln, a cloth town in the high Middle Ages, produced the cloth by dyeing it with woad (Isatis tinctoria) to give it a strong blue, then overdyeing it yellow with weld (Reseda luteola) or dyers' broom, Genista tinctoria.

A popular ballad printed in the eighteenth-century compilations Robin Hood's Garland offers an unexpected picture of Robin as he presented himself at court:

"He cloathed his men in Lincoln green
And himself in scarlet red"

This is/was Lincoln scarlet, from its imported dyestuff as Yulzari posted, was more expensive than Lincoln green. Would outlaws in the forest cloth themselves in very expensive "Scarlet" cloth?

 

[Airframes]

One of the earliest accounts of camouflage was Julius Caesar's scout ships, used during the Gallic Wars (about 54 b.c.), when they were painted "Venetian Blue" for scouting the British coast. The crews aboard (sailors and marines) were uniformed in the same blue-green color.

They got that wrong then - it's normally dark grey around the coasts of Britain!
Thanks Mike - I thought the cloth was actually green, as I remember reading about the specialist dyers of Lincoln, and the olive green cloth, and this being the only place it could be obtained. And in those days, quite a long journey to get it, too. So, the Mead-befuddled Merry Men were actually camouflaged.

 

[pattle]

What he said.
I merely intended to take your valid comment about the excellent camouflage and blow it up to a humorously absurd level - invisible aircraft. I guess it was not as humorous as I thought.

Sometimes my jokes are much funnier to me than to anyone else. Sorry, I meant no disrespect.

Sorry sometimes I can be a bit slow, now I feel a bit of a knob.

 

[nincomp]

Sorry sometimes I can be a bit slow, now I feel a bit of a knob.

Don't worry about it. If it makes you feel better, I can guarantee that most of the people here in North Carolina (USA) will have no idea of what you meant in the above comment anyway. They will picture a door-knob then think to themselves: "What in creation does he mean by that?"

 

[yulzari]

Terry, surprised you accepted that post from Yulzari: Lyncolne grene is a deep warm olive green. The dyers of Lincoln, a cloth town in the high Middle Ages, produced the cloth by dyeing it with woad (Isatis tinctoria) to give it a strong blue, then overdyeing it yellow with weld (Reseda luteola) or dyers' broom, Genista tinctoria.

A popular ballad printed in the eighteenth-century compilations Robin Hood's Garland offers an unexpected picture of Robin as he presented himself at court:

"He cloathed his men in Lincoln green
And himself in scarlet red"

This is/was Lincoln scarlet, from its imported dyestuff as Yulzari posted, was more expensive than Lincoln green. Would outlaws in the forest cloth themselves in very expensive "Scarlet" cloth?

Hi Mike.

In truth no one actually knows because 'Robin Hood' is a conflation of many oral traditions all hung on a probable thread of a Yorkshire bandit.

The later written tales come from a time when the Lincoln reds were superceded by cheaper reds (but the Roman Catholic church still kept the red tradition in ecclesiastical dress.)

Lincoln, indeed all european historical greens, were expensively double dyed in blue and yellow so the audience assumed the 'grane' was 'green' as it was clearly posh cloth and green seems logical. The early red reference was a plot ploy to show how successful the outlaws were.

We can see a later flaunting of wealth with cloth in the times of the Puritans; whose black cloth and white linen implied wealth as the black too had to be doubled dyed and white linen implied servants to keep it clean and the wealth to buy linen. It also allowed the rising Puritan middle classes to by pass sumptuary laws. Poor Puritans had to make do with the common grey or brown cloth and unbleached woollen shirts.

Anyway, I will close the subject there as it is a little far from WW2.

We are both possibly right, or possibly wrong. My money is on the real outlaws wearing brown or grey but the illustrations in slightly later medieval Books of Hours (our colour 'photographs' of the Middle Ages) show peasants in some surprisingly bright colours (though I suspect the pinks are depicting faded reds) but are authentic in showing the castles as bright white as they were lime washed annually. Hence they left holes for the scaffolding pole to use. Maybe one day Hollywood will show medieval castles properly washed in white within and without with bright hangings and bright painted furniture. In those days colour meant wealth.

 

[Civettone]

Nincomp, I liked your joke!

As to Julius Caesar. As far as I know, the only source we have, is his De Bello Gallico memoirs. As such, I think we can only guess what colours he really used. 'Venetian blue' would be funny as Venice was founded centuries later (after the destruction of Aquileia by Attila the Hun).


Kris

 

[GrauGeist]

As to Julius Caesar. As far as I know, the only source we have, is his De Bello Gallico memoirs. As such, I think we can only guess what colours he really used. 'Venetian blue' would be funny as Venice was founded centuries later (after the destruction of Aquileia by Attila the Hun).
Kris

The "Venetian Blue" reference came from Vegetius' (Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus) 4th century military writings "Epitoma rei militaris" while trying to describe the color used by Julius Caesar's naval units during the Gallic Wars.

 

[Airframes]

You sure it wasn't 'Norwegian Blue' Dave?
Oops! Wrong sketch ... I mean thread! I'll get me coat!

 

[GrauGeist]

You sure it wasn't 'Norwegian Blue' Dave?
Oops! Wrong sketch ... I mean thread! I'll get me coat!

lmao Terry!

Pretty sure...and I seriously doubt it was Prussian Blue, either...the Romans hadn't made friends with the Teutons yet

 

[Civettone]

Great!
I read Vegetius as well as Ammianus Marcellinus for my dissertation on Late Roman fortifications. I remember I had to be careful using Vegetius, because his sources were a bit dubious, while as Amm. Marc. had first-hand knowledge. Anyway, I am not going so far as to criticize Vegetius' account and give him the benefit of the doubt.
But he did not call it 'Venetian' blue, did he?

Kris

 

[GrauGeist]

Great!
I read Vegetius as well as Ammianus Marcellinus for my dissertation on Late Roman fortifications. I remember I had to be careful using Vegetius, because his sources were a bit dubious, while as Amm. Marc. had first-hand knowledge. Anyway, I am not going so far as to criticize Vegetius' account and give him the benefit of the doubt.
But he did not call it 'Venetian' blue, did he?

Kris

I agree wih you regarding Vegetius on many accounts! Especially his military "advice", however he did become an accidental historian by preserving a great deal of information in his writings that would have been otherwise lost.

As far as the reference to "venetian blue", this was a term he used so and while not a very technical term, it is descriptive and perhaps was influenced by his travels in the area at that time.

My guess is that the term "Venetian" may not be in reference to the city, but rather the area, since the "city" was still a small community in it developing stages by the 4th century.