davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
In the early to mid-fifties, three, at or near Mach 2, air superiority fighters was developed by the AF and Navy, the F-104 Starfighter, the F8U Crusader, and the F11F-1F Super Tiger. All three powered by a single 16-18k lb thrust jet engine, the J-79 for the Starfighter and Super Tiger, and the J-57 for the Crusader. The following is a comparison of the three aircraft per Wikipedia adjusted to data from "American Combat Planes" by Wagner.
Weight empty (lbs)
F11F 16.5k
F8U 15.5k
F-104 13k
Weight (combat) (lbs)
F11F 21443
F8U 23659*
F-104 17768
* While the F8U had more fuel than the F11F, it was not as aerodynamically clean as the F11F as the F11F was over 100 mph faster at sea level with similar thrust, therefore, the F8U would use more fuel to perform the same mission.
Speed max (mph/M/altitude(1000 ft))
F11F 1400/2.04/40k (note this max speed but at a higher altitude than the other two). Speed at 35k is 1325/2.01
F8U 1013/1.53/35k
F-104 1324/2.01/35k
Range
Roughly equivalent
Ceiling (ft)
F11F 50k (some sources say 59k)
F8U 58k
F-104 55k
Thrust to Weight
F11F .70
F8U .68
F-104 .84
Wing loading (combat) (lbs/sqft)
F11F 86
F8U 63
F-104 90
The F11F-1F was an impressive performing aircraft for the era and seemed to be quite competitive with contemporary designs. It was very fast, matching the speed of the vaunted F-104 with the same engine and considerable faster than the F8U, 300 mph at altitude and 100 mph on the deck. It was obviously a great handling aircraft as the Blue Angels flew the F11F for many years. Also, had the Navy bought the F11-1F, it would have the same engine as the F4H Phantom II and the A5J Vigilante greatly simplifying logistics. This brought up a question, did the Navy, and the world, miss out on the F11F-1F?
I can kind of understand why the Navy did not end up with the F11F-1F instead of the F8U. Grumman did not buy into the more powerful engines coming down the line as Lockheed and Vaught did, possibly trying to keep the weight of the F11F down. That was a mistake however and left it barely meeting the competition spec. The F8U, with its more powerful engine was clearly superior and, by the time Grumman switched to the J-79 engine, the Crusader was already in production.
Foreign military sales were another issue. There is no doubt the F11F would have been a far better choice for foreign sales than the F-104. It was faster; no doubt better maneuvering, and by far a safer aircraft, especially for many weak foreign pilots. In my pilot training class there was one Afghanistan student who had taken two years to get through the one year course. His father was head of the Afghanistani Air Force and the USAF was determined to graduate him, dropping him back from class to class. He was finally passed and went on to fly, you guessed it, an F-104. There is probably a black hole with his name on it somewhere. Many more pilots would have survived service had the F11F-1F been the selection. Unfortunately, there was a big bribery issue going on against Lockheed at that time. Too bad, a possibly great aircraft never got to show its stuff.
Weight empty (lbs)
F11F 16.5k
F8U 15.5k
F-104 13k
Weight (combat) (lbs)
F11F 21443
F8U 23659*
F-104 17768
* While the F8U had more fuel than the F11F, it was not as aerodynamically clean as the F11F as the F11F was over 100 mph faster at sea level with similar thrust, therefore, the F8U would use more fuel to perform the same mission.
Speed max (mph/M/altitude(1000 ft))
F11F 1400/2.04/40k (note this max speed but at a higher altitude than the other two). Speed at 35k is 1325/2.01
F8U 1013/1.53/35k
F-104 1324/2.01/35k
Range
Roughly equivalent
Ceiling (ft)
F11F 50k (some sources say 59k)
F8U 58k
F-104 55k
Thrust to Weight
F11F .70
F8U .68
F-104 .84
Wing loading (combat) (lbs/sqft)
F11F 86
F8U 63
F-104 90
The F11F-1F was an impressive performing aircraft for the era and seemed to be quite competitive with contemporary designs. It was very fast, matching the speed of the vaunted F-104 with the same engine and considerable faster than the F8U, 300 mph at altitude and 100 mph on the deck. It was obviously a great handling aircraft as the Blue Angels flew the F11F for many years. Also, had the Navy bought the F11-1F, it would have the same engine as the F4H Phantom II and the A5J Vigilante greatly simplifying logistics. This brought up a question, did the Navy, and the world, miss out on the F11F-1F?
I can kind of understand why the Navy did not end up with the F11F-1F instead of the F8U. Grumman did not buy into the more powerful engines coming down the line as Lockheed and Vaught did, possibly trying to keep the weight of the F11F down. That was a mistake however and left it barely meeting the competition spec. The F8U, with its more powerful engine was clearly superior and, by the time Grumman switched to the J-79 engine, the Crusader was already in production.
Foreign military sales were another issue. There is no doubt the F11F would have been a far better choice for foreign sales than the F-104. It was faster; no doubt better maneuvering, and by far a safer aircraft, especially for many weak foreign pilots. In my pilot training class there was one Afghanistan student who had taken two years to get through the one year course. His father was head of the Afghanistani Air Force and the USAF was determined to graduate him, dropping him back from class to class. He was finally passed and went on to fly, you guessed it, an F-104. There is probably a black hole with his name on it somewhere. Many more pilots would have survived service had the F11F-1F been the selection. Unfortunately, there was a big bribery issue going on against Lockheed at that time. Too bad, a possibly great aircraft never got to show its stuff.
