Did the RN win the Battle of Britain?

[syscom3]

How long did it take the Germans to prepare for Op. Barbarossa ?

Huge difference between a land invasion against a foe that was ill prepared or trained and an amphib invasion against a well trained and equiped army.

Tactics and doctrine was not a concern, cause every German soldier by then possessed this. Practice on seaborn invasions had already been done before, and was tought in the Hitler-Jugend as-well.

And how many "quality" amphib invasions did the Germans practice at against a defended beach? The Germans were a continetal army with no maritime skills. Note - paddling in a rubber dingy on a small stream or lake does not qualify as practice for a cross channel jaunt in the channel that could be expected to have high sea states.

Channelized ? All they had to do was avoid going into the channel, the RN on the other hand would have to go through the mine-field in order to reach the invasion force.

Only the KM warships would have to be inside the channel, the Italian navy (if it ever made it there) would help guard the intrances to the channel or act as a chicane for the RN while it tries to enter it.

What is it, German warships in the channel or not.

RN subs would've found that a VERY hard task to carry out ! How were they to successfully engage the better equipped German subs ?

The RN subs would find plenty of German ships to shoot at, including subs. Besides, a torpedo doesnt care about the quality of a ship its shot at.

Of course it would, but it would occupy a good part of the RN at the same time.

Youre putting a lot of faith in the Italian navy to successfully protect itself against air attack. This would end up just the same as the repulse and the POW.

The KM warships would assist as-well as the LW.

The KM only had a mere handfull of BB's and CA's to use. You lose one or two for any reason, and youre fire support is greatly reduced. And I still cant figure out whether they are in the channel and bottled up by their own minefield, or out of the channel where they are of no use.

You're forgetting that RN can't see their most dangerous enemy - the U-boats. The U-boats would simply be spread out to guard the intrances, waiting for the RN to pass them - this was a tactic which proved effective against the fast Allied Destroyers in the Atlantic.

And youre forgetting that MTB's, destroyers and other small craft will be hunting your subs and once they pass your picket line, they will have a field day smashing the unarmed and slow moving invasion fleet. And if the weather is bad, your U-Boats wont be seeing many of them.

Just a single U-boat could cause havoc against even a large fleet of warships - remember what happened to the HMS Barham ?

And just a few aircraft can smash a large fleet just like the POW/Repluse and the Bismark.

Sorry Soren, your arguments assume everything will go exactly right for the Germans and everything will go spectaculary wrong with the Brits.

And if youre planning your invasion in 1942, forget it as the USN and USAAF would give the allies the qualitative and quantitavive superiority.

 

[Hop]

Submarines are very bad at attacking fast moving ships. As evidence of that, look at the Queen's during the war. They carried up to 15,000 soldiers at a time, and usually did so without escort, because their speed made them all but invulnerable to U boats.

 

[pbfoot]

Did the RN have better flares ? because not many RN ships had radar
The Italian air force was probably as good as any in the spectrum of maritime warfare and working the channel would be a target rich enviroment with little transit time with very little chance of interception unless the RAF mounted a standing CAP as the radar available at the time was poor in its lo level capabilities but this would have strained the resources of the RAF and provided the Luftwaffe a target rich enviroment of their own . My tactic would have been similar in nature to Zeebrugge or St Nazaire but I would've beached a several large transports on the English shores in the initial assault to enable heavy equipment and supplies to be brought in .
Now the RN would have shifted a bulk of their resources to the channel leaving the ports from which the Brits recieved the vital resource of oil open to a blockade of U boats .

 

[Tony Williams]

The night belongs to the RN because aircraft cannot effectively attack ships at sea in the darkness. The Lufwaffe would therefore be nullified (and the U-boats wouldn't be able to see much either), and there would be nothing to stop the RN from wreaking havoc amongst the invasion force.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

furthermore as i keep saying, U-boats have to surface at night to recharge batteries- making them very nice targets for numerous RN ships in the area and with regards to U-boats stopping an entire navy- the RN would have small ships dropping more than enough depth charges if a U-boat was around to make the U-boat submerge drastically... a submarine below periscope depth is of no use to the Germans as a submarine below periscope depth can't see anything on the surface!

 

[pbfoot]

Ok the aircraft factor would be nullified but the same restrictions that pertained to the U-boats would also pertain to the RN who used the type 79 and 279 radar
The Type 79 and Type 279 were similar, both using separate transmitting and receiving antennas mounted on their own masts but rotating in synchronization. The antennas were small, resulting in a wide beam, which was adequate for detecting aerial intruders at ranges of up to about 80 kilometers (50 miles), but not so good at targeting naval vessels. It was also not very good at picking up low-flying aircraft.

The need for more precise targeting led Royal Navy researchers to hastily develop a 1.5 meter / 200 MHz radar, the "Type 286", based on the technology Bowen had developed during his AI work. The initial "Type 286M" used a fixed antenna, meaning the ship had to change direction to point the radar beam. The Type 286M could pick up a surfaced submarine at a distance of no more than a kilometer if the vessel carrying the radar was pointed in the right direction.

In March 1941, a Royal Navy destroyer managed to spot a German submarine at night using the Type 286M and then rammed the submarine, sending it to the bottom. However, that was basically nothing more than a stroke of luck. A "Type 286P" with a steerable antenna would be introduced in mid-1941.
U boats could probably transit the whole channel submerged without fear of recharging

 

[syscom3]

Submarines are very bad at attacking fast moving ships. As evidence of that, look at the Queen's during the war. They carried up to 15,000 soldiers at a time, and usually did so without escort, because their speed made them all but invulnerable to U boats.

Amphib craft are slow moving "targets".

 

[syscom3]

........ My tactic would have been similar in nature to Zeebrugge or St Nazaire but I would've beached a several large transports on the English shores in the initial assault to enable heavy equipment and supplies to be brought in .
......

They would be sitting ducks for the RAF and then artillery.

This tactic would bring complete destruction to any force attempting this type of attack.

The invasion of Britain would be similar in scope and complexity as D-Day. Many different forces all with specialized amphib craft would need to assault the beaches simultaneously, with complete air and sea control. Plus the Germans must have the necessary amphib reserves available to make good the inevitable loss's that would occur.

 

[pbfoot]

The Brit land forces in the fall of 40 were not in very good shape lacking much of there heavy weaponry with few fixed positions the RAF at night would have been non existent . If the Luftwaffe had continued to attack the airfields instead of switching to urban areas the RAF would have been in the reverse position of aircraft operating on the extremes of their range over the battle field as they would have been moved further north even possibly losing some of the radar stations due to ground action . The Italians had specialized torpedo aircraft SM79's and Cant's that would have caused havoc in the channel for the RN. I think it could've been done but not without heavy costs but it was do able. Also I think panic would have ensued in the UK with the same effects as in France and the Low countries.
The CAF never realized my tactical genius

 

[syscom3]

In the fall of 1940, the British army was in a far better position of being reorganized, tained and equiped as opposed to the situation after Dunkirk.

As has been said many times, the RAF fighters would have been dispersed out of range of the German fighters and could attack the invading forces when those fighters covering the invasion HAD to return for refueling. And that doesnt take into account the bombers that would have attacked with impunity.

As was proven in the course of the war, you simply cant shut down every airfeild all the time, and its relatively simple to keep the airfields operational for simple tasks such as refueling and rearming.

There is also ample evidence that the Luftwaffe did not have enough fighters and bombers to handle the scope of work it would have if the invasion occured in this time frame. The Luftwaffe had not planned for the attritional losses that was occuring and their forces would be in decline by the fall of 1940.

And all of this is moot as it has been shown the KM didnt have the resources to invade and support a large invasion.

 

[Meteor]

Still debating this one I see, here is an interesting Link I found;

Operation Sealion

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i link i have already posted just one or two pages back........