Dive vs Torpedo Bomber

[fubar57]

Helicopter-launched MBDA Sea Venom anti-ship missile hits target during test
REVEALED: India's Naval Anti-Ship Missile Breaks Cover At #DefExpo2020

 

[SaparotRob]

What is a "Super Bug"? I thought that was a VW with a Corvair engine.

 

[fubar57]

F/A-18E

 

[Kevin J]

They also carry deck guns, small arms and fire hoses for striking other vessels.

You can use a frigate's ASW helicopter with antiship missiles to tackle a single and small enemy surface combatant. But that's not the anti-surface vessel mission the Fairey Swordfish was undertaking. The modern equivalent of a Swordfish mission is to mount a strike against a well escorted Kirov-class battlecruiser or a group of Luyang III-class destroyers. No one is going to use a navy's ASW helicpoter to attack that. That's Super Bug, Rafale and F-35 work.
That said, sending a single or pair of Swordfish to search for and depth charge a U-boat is equal to today's ASW helicopter doing the same job. So maybe that's what was meant above.

Torpedo dropping was not the major task the Swordfish was used for, although almost certainly the most dangerous task. We had Avengers that were torpedo bombers except they never dropped a single torpedo for the FAA. The FAA's torpedo drops were done by 138 mph Swordfish, then Albacore, then 226 mph Barracudas. All done by aircraft with the same speed range of modern helicopters. Bloody dangerous. I'm sure health and safety would have something to say about that nowadays. Surely they're all obsolete according to the obsolete Swordfish misconception?

 

[SaparotRob]

Thanks!

 

[Shortround6]

Torpedo dropping was not the major task the Swordfish was used for, although almost certainly the most dangerous task. We had Avengers that were torpedo bombers except they never dropped a single torpedo for the FAA. The FAA's torpedo drops were done by 138 mph Swordfish, then Albacore, then 226 mph Barracudas. All done by aircraft with the same speed range of modern helicopters. Bloody dangerous. I'm sure health and safety would have something to say about that nowadays. Surely they're all obsolete according to the obsolete Swordfish misconception?

Seems like there are a lot of misconceptions going around.

The Avenger could only carry the short fat American MK 13 torpedo. It's bomb bay was too short to hold the British 18in aerial torpedo. There wasn't enough ground clearance to bolt the doors shut and try to sling it outside the plane.
British did use Beauforts, Beaufighters, Hampdens and Wellingtons as torpedo bombers, with varying degrees of success.

However the Swordfish, then Albacore, then Barracudas were ALL DESIGNED to be torpedo attack planes, that was their reason for existing. That fact that years later (especially in the case of the Swordfish) they were used for other missions doesn't change that.

Any helicopter (or squadron of helicopters) that tried to do an Swordfish attack profile against a WW II warship, let alone a modern warship would be making suicide runs.

Take one of those big helicopters, hang a torpedo off it instead of the anti-ship missile. Now fly it at the target ship in a manner that will give the torpedo a good chance of success. That means flying at a steady altitude on a steady course for several hundred yards minimum before dropping the torpedo. You need time for the torpedo gyros to spin up to speed and stabilize. You can't drop when diving or when climbing or the torpedo doesn't hit the water at the right angle. resulting in a broken torpedo at worst and a torpedo that porpoises and takes a while (if ever) to find it's proper running depth at best.
do that in the face of WW II AA fire or modern AA fire and tell us how the Swordfish isn't obsolete because it flies as fast as the Helicopter. Nobody is asking the Helicopters to get anywhere near the Ships AA weapons when they do an anti-ship strike mission.

AS WW II went on, especially in the last few years, the altitudes and speeds torpedoes could be dropped at changed considerably.

 

[Kevin J]

Seems like there are a lot of misconceptions going around.

The Avenger could only carry the short fat American MK 13 torpedo. It's bomb bay was too short to hold the British 18in aerial torpedo. There wasn't enough ground clearance to bolt the doors shut and try to sling it outside the plane.
British did use Beauforts, Beaufighters, Hampdens and Wellingtons as torpedo bombers, with varying degrees of success.

However the Swordfish, then Albacore, then Barracudas were ALL DESIGNED to be torpedo attack planes, that was their reason for existing. That fact that years later (especially in the case of the Swordfish) they were used for other missions doesn't change that.

Any helicopter (or squadron of helicopters) that tried to do an Swordfish attack profile against a WW II warship, let alone a modern warship would be making suicide runs.

Take one of those big helicopters, hang a torpedo off it instead of the anti-ship missile. Now fly it at the target ship in a manner that will give the torpedo a good chance of success. That means flying at a steady altitude on a steady course for several hundred yards minimum before dropping the torpedo. You need time for the torpedo gyros to spin up to speed and stabilize. You can't drop when diving or when climbing or the torpedo doesn't hit the water at the right angle. resulting in a broken torpedo at worst and a torpedo that porpoises and takes a while (if ever) to find it's proper running depth at best.
do that in the face of WW II AA fire or modern AA fire and tell us how the Swordfish isn't obsolete because it flies as fast as the Helicopter. Nobody is asking the Helicopters to get anywhere near the Ships AA weapons when they do an anti-ship strike mission.

AS WW II went on, especially in the last few years, the altitudes and speeds torpedoes could be dropped at changed considerably.

I always thought that being a torpedo bomber pilot was a bit like a suicide bomber, Kamikaze. Neither the Devastators nor Avengers did very well at Midday, did they and presumably they weren't obsolete. I've just checked, the Barracuda never dropped a torpedo in anger, it was only the Swordfish and Albacore.

 

[Shortround6]

Devastators were about 4 years old at best, First flew in 1935 and issued to first squadron Aug 1937, 4 years and 10 months before Midway.

Avengers were brand new. There were a grand total of six Avengers. Both types had defective torpedoes. Don't try to draw conclusions from small samples.

Nobody's torpedo bombers were going to do well approaching the the target without effective fighter escort. If you get shot down by fighters before you get into into torpedo range it is a bit hard to score.

It's what happens in the last few miles that really determine if the torpedo plane "works" or not.

The British scored a lot of successes with air launched torpedoes, but it either requires crappy, low visibility weather or a coordinated attack with other aircraft going in for flak suppression before the torpedo bombers get to the drop points.
This assumes the target ships have a decent AA suite (The Repulse was 3rd rate at best.)

 

[SaparotRob]

THIS (almost) NEVER HAPPENS!

 

[fastmongrel]

Does anyone know if Fairey's monoplane proposal was to be dive bomb capable?

View attachment 582415
Arnhem Jim: October 2013

That looks interesting any more info like when it was proposed or performance estimates.

 

[fastmongrel]

I always thought that being a torpedo bomber pilot was a bit like a suicide bomber, Kamikaze. Neither the Devastators nor Avengers did very well at Midday, did they and presumably they weren't obsolete. I've just checked, the Barracuda never dropped a torpedo in anger, it was only the Swordfish and Albacore.

The Devastator was pretty well obsolete, despite being a monoplane it wasnt much faster than a Swordfish. 3 crew plus a torpedo doesnt go very fast on 850hp, Plus according to the little I have read it wasnt very manouverable.

 

[RCAFson]

I always thought that being a torpedo bomber pilot was a bit like a suicide bomber, Kamikaze. Neither the Devastators nor Avengers did very well at Midday, did they and presumably they weren't obsolete. I've just checked, the Barracuda never dropped a torpedo in anger, it was only the Swordfish and Albacore.

The Barracuda was mainly used as a divebomber but it did fly at least 16 combat sorties armed with torpedoes, and did drop some in anger, during an anti-shipping campaign against Norway in 1944, that resulted in the sinking of 17 ships and damage to many others. See Brown, in Fairey Barracuda Mks 1-IV.

 

[fubar57]

The Barracuda was mainly used as a divebomber but it did fly at least 16 combat sorties armed with torpedoes, and did drop some in anger, during an anti-shipping campaign against Norway in 1944, that resulted in the sinking of 17 ships and damage to many others. See Brown, in Fairey Barracuda Mks 1-IV.

According to the Warpaint "Fairey Barracuda" the usual compliment consisted of one or two Barracudas carrying torpedoes and the rest carried bombs

 

[gjs238]

I always find it amusing for people that think the Admiralty was wrong or the Swordfish was obsolete since they conveniently forget that their modern contemporary is the helicopter which flies at the same sort of speed.

Wikipedia lists the Yokosuka B4Y as the contemporary of the Swordfish, yet the Japanese moved on to the Nakajima B5N.

 

[Kevin J]

Wikipedia lists the Yokosuka B4Y as the contemporary of the Swordfish, yet the Japanese moved on to the Nakajima B5N.

We moved onto the Albacore, an enclosed cockpit biplane torpedo bomber that could also dive bomb though not designed for it. Such progress. We did have the Atlantic and Arctic to contend with though. Finally, the Barracuda designed by a origami expert never ever dropped a torpedo, mainly used to dive bomb, slower than a Stuka.

 

[RCAFson]

We moved onto the Albacore, an enclosed cockpit biplane torpedo bomber that could also dive bomb though not designed for it. Such progress. We did have the Atlantic and Arctic to contend with though. Finally, the Barracuda designed by a origami expert never ever dropped a torpedo, mainly used to dive bomb, slower than a Stuka.

The Albacore was designed from the start for divebombing, and that was in the design spec.

 

[Kevin J]

The Albacore was designed from the start for divebombing, and that was in the design spec.

I stand corrected.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Most Luftwaffe torpedo bombing seems to have been carried out by He 111 or Ju 88 Torps which could carry two torpedo's. Without aircraft carriers there was not much need for a single engine torpedo bomber and its limitations in range. Technically the Ju 88 is a dive bomber so its actually on topic. Not quite sure how successful these aircraft were but it would be predicated on whether they had escort fighters and at certain point if confronted with the rather long ranged Bofors 40mm it would be difficult to get close compared to the POM POM and 20mm guns.

At a certain point the Luftwaffe developed "The turnip planting method" where a Ju 88 or say Me 109 would shallow dive on the target and aim bombs just ahead of the waterline.
The Bombs were time delay fused for about 5.6 seconds (according to Fleischers German Air dropped weapons) so the bomb would sink and blow up beneath the ship hopefully breaking its back. From a Ju 88 equipped with the Stuvi 5 and BZA it was quite accurate. An lone Me 109 seems to have burst open the hull armour plate of HMS Fiji using this. A Luftwaffe pilot was expected to be able to carry out calculations. The pilot would plan and attack run with a particular speed, altitude and angle for release. He would know his targets dimensions and use the stedometric ring on the Revi guns sight to estimate range. Some Revis used for fighter bombers had a second reticule which was pre-set on the vertical axis and the pilot would release to bombs as he pulled up.

I think the turnip method was seen as suplanting torpedo bombing. Interestingly the bombs were often given a 'prall scheibe" a flat plate on the nose to stop them bouncing which makes me think that with appropriate fusing the method might have worked using skip bombing, direct hits as welll as under water bursts.

The Luftwaffe even developed a special series of bombs called the BT series BordTorpedo eg BT700, BT1400 which were highly elongated bombs that could be dropped hundreds of feet from the target ship and would speer underwater. The idea was to use a to coil metal detector as a proximity fuse presumably with impact, time delay and or depth as a backup. After problems with their magnetic torpedo fuses the Germans introduced metal detector style fuses in 1942. They didn't quite enter production for the BT series but I think were used on ordinary bombs. The big advantage of the turnip method was that a huge explosive could be carried so a near miss by a big bomb was as good as a direct hit by a small torpedo war head and it could be released at high speed to provide standoff range.

Nevertheless the Luftwaffe persisted with torpedos. There were Fw 190 experimental modified with extended tail yokes to carry torpedos and it was planed to use the lobe switching feature of the Hohtenweil radar to do torpedo bombing attacks at night and in bad weather using Ju 88/Ju 188 and Me 410.

No warship larger than a destroyer had its back broken by an underwater explosion of any sort. Tirptiz even survived the explosion of 4 massive (2 tons of amatol each ) charges placed under her by RN midget submarines that bodily lifted her out of the water.
The attack on the Fiji by the 109 was after the Fiji had been under continuous attack for 4 hours and had expended all her AA ammunition including practice rounds and star shell. The RN had made a big mistake in sending her and Glouscester to rescue survivors of HMS Greyhound with low ammunition stocks and no air cover. As to whether the bomb burst open the armor of the Fiji, I have doubts. Some sources say it was below the amour which seems more likely. In any event some sources claim the lone bomb sunk the Fiji but here is what the UK Ministry of Defense says:

As to the chances of any pilot placing his bombs as accurately as the Luftwaffe expected their pilots to do, I say good luck. I posted a USN study of bombing accuracy recently and here is an excerpt:

Also if the Luftwaffe expected their pilots to know the dimensions of their target they were exceedingly optimistic. Pilots of all nations, even those trained specially as scouts, consistently misidentified ships.

 

[Shortround6]

I believe the Belfast had her back broken by a magnetic mine?

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I believe the Belfast had her back broken by a magnetic mine?

The Belfast was bent not broken. Read D K Brown "Nelson to Vanguard" for a detailed description of the damage.