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But just like I predicted Bill is now trying to suggest that a P-51 can take a direct hit from an 88mm!! Well yes, sure Bill ofcourse it can, it's a P-51 so it can ofcourse take more punishment than a bomber!I mean if it takes the massive power of a single rifle round to down a P-51 I'm sure a cannon shell would be useless
This is what I said Soren-
"here are two shots of my father's various flak targets. The P-51B was hit by a 20mm, the P-51D by a 37/40mm.
A wing could be blown off by any of these - depending on a.) where it hit, and b.) how heavily the airframe/wing/tail was loaded stress wise when it was hit.
There excellent examples of B-17s and B-24s being hit by 88mm shells which burst inside the bomber aft of the wing and flew home.
So, you want to make a blanket statement about the 100% attrition of all aircraft hit by a 30mm from an Me 262?
Proof, please?
Talk about sticking your nose into unknown territory!
Soren you're right, I don't know where Bill was going with that, except weight for weight the P-51 was stronger, but even so strenght in terms of ability to withstand loads is different than the ability to withstand battle damage or heavy shock.
Bill simply said it was possible, depending on location (i.e away from spar, outboard of guns) and strees condition (ie manuever situation with associated loads) to survive a 30mm hit - no more - no less
Some uninformed people for example will assume that since the F4F could take a hell of a lot of damage while the Zero was very fragile (in terms of damage or shock resistance) would mean the Wildcat could take more G's, but in reality the Zero had a quite strong structure for its weight and for this type of loading. (it could probably pull more G's than the Wildcat, and the Ki 43 moreso, but the Zero's frame was not good with aerodynamic loads high speeds though reaching the structural limit well before compressibility at a little over 410 mph)
Though in this case the P-51 does have a fairly tough airframe in terms of construction. (quite a bit tougher than say a spitfire, engine vulnerability aside)
The Spit was stressed at 11G Ultimate, 51D at 12G ultimate ~ 9% higher load capability.
But that first pic of the P-51 Bill posted realy doesn't look like a 30mm hit (even for a normal HE round) but more like a 20mm mine shell hit.
You may go back and note that the 51B was a 20mm flak hit
The bottom pic with 1/2 the fin ripped off could have been a 30mm hit near the tip of the fin.
You may go back and note that it was believed to be a 37/40mm flak hit on 44-72253 WR-Bbar - on the deck and he survived a snap roll on Mar 22, 1944 around Munich area
And a wingtip hit from a mine round (that detonated) may not have been a definite kill but it probably wouldn't have left the P-51 in fighting condition.
Depends - if it lost an aileron you are right. If it was say, on the Star and missed damaging the spar badly enough to lose the outboard wing tip area, and aileron still worked, it was still probably able to fly and manuever
Again, Soren do you know the mix of ammo that the Me 262 carried?
PS: 1.3 * 6.5 = 8.45 G's, the P-51's ultimate load limit at combat weight (9,700 lbs)
30 mm low-velocity (MK 108 )
Minengeschoß 108 El o. Zerl.
Only the Minengeschoß was fired by the MK 108, also in versions with day or night tracer. The ammunition was not interchangeable with that of the much more powerful MK 101 and MK 103, hence the addition 108. The letters El probably indicate the presence of Elektron, an incendiary compound, in the projectiles. Surprisingly, self-destruction fuses were not used, although German fighters were operating over the home country at this time in the war.
Sorry, bill I missed the 20mm 37/40mm thing.
No biggie KK
But one thing to note on the 37mm is that a normal HE 37 mm shell will carry quite a bit less than a 30mm mine shell. The US 37mm (similar in size to the german shells) shell used in the M4 cannon weighed about twice as much as a 30mm mine shell, but carried only 45-48g HE compared to 85 grams of the 30mm. (76g for the tracer)
Actually, I have no proof it was a 37mm or 40mm - just larger by estimate of Engineering at Steeple Morden when he bleeid that one in. Whatever large caliber (vs 20mm) most likely to by performing airfield defense.
And looking around, it seems only the mine shell was in common use with the MK 108. Soren any info?
The WWII Fighter Gun Debate: Ammunition
But obviously a wide range of ammo was designed and produced. (I's imagine the AP wouldn't be the best role for the MK 108 due to the low velocity)
Komet weapons: MK 108 cannon
Wrong - as Usual
Don't misunderstand this perspective I have.
1.) any 30mm was a devastaing air to air weapon
2.) Highly stressed fighter a/c inherently are tough, big bombers usually tougher
3.) one of anything below 30mm has a lower probability of a one hit kill unless it hits engine, pilot, fuel tank or main spar.
4.) a 30mm has a higher probability but not a 100% sure thing
But these Dogfight shows aren't really about the individual planes but a situation in which someone overcame odds or such. I think a show on some of the actions of Buffalo pilots getting kills and how they did it in a supposedly inferior craft would be interesting.