Dog fights on the History channel

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes. But i must admit that i never tried this kind of manouever. But based on aerodynamics i suppose that aircraft must lose speed! If not it is new to me! Sorry for my ignorance.Hehe...

No problem - if you have enough energy prior to the maneuver, technically it could be done although the aircraft will be stalled and as you said, an accelerated stall. Basically momentum (energy) is what is keeping you in the air. I've was subjected to such maneuvers on 2 or 3 occasions from what I could remember, it's pretty scary.

Going back to Candelaria - I do not believe there is any reason to doubt what he did, and I would say what he pulled off is more luck than skill.

As far as the producers of the show - I'm sure that did their best to simulate what was done, but let's face it, it is TV.

 

[Guns'n'Props]

It was admittedly a 1 in a million shot. Credit to Candelaria for trusting his instinct and going for the maneuver...and pulling it off so effectively.

 

[thor]

it sounded to me when he was explaining things that he was as surprised as anyone that he found himself with a guns solution, with the possible exception of the 109 pilot ...

it is my understanding that the pony did not like to do snap rolls and would tend to depart if done violently or carelessly ...

i think that is what he describes and boys being boys they will explore the limits of their toys. i am pretty sure i recall several of the p51 guys using these abrupt departures as last resort evasive maneuvers.

i also agree the graphic representation is very suspect, but i have no doubt he did what he said he did, he just probably had no idea what it looked like from the outside and the CGI team just didn't do a convincing job representing it.

there were other thinks about that episode that bothered me more, but like was mentioned it is TV, and pretty one sided t.v. at that.

t

 

[vinnye]

Hi, still pretty new here so will open my account by posting a link to some action on Youtube - I presume taken from the Zero Killers episode - which i am going to go back and watch. Actions like these started to take away the air of invincibility of the Zero!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob3lvqowHo

 

[baldpuki]

2nd post here so please bear with me. My dad was featured in one of the episodes and he said it was pretty accurate, at least as far as his exploits were concerned. Google Alden Rigby and you can see some cool stuff online. His episode was the Death of the Luftwaffe. You tube has it at:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=booCDyCFxFg . Dad is 87 and healthier than I am and it is great to hear him "tell it like it was."

 

[Njaco]

Thanks for the info Bald and welcome to the forum!

 

[bobbysocks]

bald, get him to write down everything he can remember or get him talking and record as much as you can. that is a true legacy for you and your children. i didnt do that and kick myself. i do have a little bit from several talks he gave but for the most part now i am trying to piece together stories as i remember them.

 

[baldpuki]

Way ahead of you bobbysocks. My dad has written his history and given it to me, my brothers and sister. Fortunately, we are fully aware what a treasure he is and take full advantage of his still razor sharp mind. We are very lucky. It's also much easier when there is a little fame involved. When dad was inducted into the Hill Air Force Hall of Fame, they taped it..."Dogfight"s is out there and there have been a lot of magazine articles and books about him, etc. I'm just happy both my parents are healthy and vibrant at 87, 86. Hope I inherited those genes!

 

[bobbysocks]

baldpuki, another thing you might want to look into...or even initiate...the smithsonian is doing a thing on wwII vet intereviews as a video collection. a local air heritage group started it here and then they got vets from all services together and taped interviews with them. IT WAS AWESOME! some of these stories were never told and now were on tape for history's sake. they put it togther as a county thing and were asked to send it to DC. might be something happening in your area...or you might want to take the lead here and do it as a project yourself! another thing you want to do if ever given the chance is go to his fighter group reunion ( if they are going to have anymore ). 2001 was the last one for my dad's group (another instance where i should have recorded everything)...these guys are getting up there. i also had a chance to go to a couple airshows the last year of my dad's life and share that. we hit the gathering of mustangs in columbus and bumped into a couple guys from his group. i tried like hell to get him up in a 51...to dance once again with his first love...i would have paid whatever it took...but sad to say couldnt make it happen. i guess what i am saying is cherish the moments and dont put anything off...that in itself is a huge reward.

 

[baldpuki]

My dad got to ride in a Mustang again just last year. Mom was in a B-17 right beside him and watched as he did a few barrel rolls (dual control Mustang) and had fun in general for about an hour. It was a thrill for both of them! Dad's group still gets together and they even have a regular magazine. I agree that anything we can do to preserve their legacy, we should. My brother is quite an historian and is even more into this than I am. I'll mention what you suggested and maybe between the 2 of us we can make something happen. I am just blessed that we have s much history and information that we do and that he is around to ask about stuff in "real time."

 

[bobbysocks]

Thor wrote:
"it is my understanding that the pony did not like to do snap rolls and would tend to depart if done violently or carelessly ..."

I dont know about that one. snap rolls were one of my dad's favorite maneuvers...he wa s excited to out out of basic trainer and into something that had enough "guts" to do stuff like that. i never remember him complaining it ( 51s) didnt do them well.. maybe Bald could ask his dad???

Thor wrote:
"i think that is what he describes and boys being boys they will explore the limits of their toys. i am pretty sure i recall several of the p51 guys using these abrupt departures as last resort evasive maneuvers."

they put their machines through the paces...they had to know what it would and would not do. and each of them had their own tricks. during dogfights..by instinct, invention, the whisper in the ear from one's guardian angel, ... they would make these planes do things they never were intended or never thought they could do. but it was interesting ( and i got this from more than a few fighter pilots ) that most could not recall how they did it after the heat of battle. another fellow pilot who witnessed the maneuver would ask later how he did it. and the answer would be..."i dont know. i was trying everything to get him off my tail...or to get a shot." incredible times begat incredible actions....but that still isnt to say tv doesnt embellish a tad now and then.

 

[peterpro]

Me and my father watched this series but we dropped it because always the us won and the lw,ijn and ija were going down in flames

 

[Andrewc]

Dogfights Season 1 is now available in the UK and season 2 is due out later this year:

Dogfights - Season 1 [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: DVD

Dogfights Season 2 [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: DVD

Andrew

 

[dennis420b]

Me and my father watched this series but we dropped it because always the us won and the lw,ijn and ija were going down in flames

I agree. A lot of the shows on the History or Military channel, portray the American's as invincible and superior to all that would oppose them. Take the "top ten" shows. No matter the category be it firearms, ships, fighters, bombers, the American's always have at least 5 of the ten designs. I had to stop watching them, as my wife got sick of me pausing the program to show her in books that what ever they were saying was untrue.

 

[Trebor]

I'll be getting the entire series on DVD soon just for $30!

 

[zoomar]

I agree. A lot of the shows on the History or Military channel, portray the American's as invincible and superior to all that would oppose them. Take the "top ten" shows. No matter the category be it firearms, ships, fighters, bombers, the American's always have at least 5 of the ten designs. I had to stop watching them, as my wife got sick of me pausing the program to show her in books that what ever they were saying was untrue.

Me to. I've never though too highly of any of the so-called "military history" shows on the Military Channel, History Channel, or Discovery. The old "Wings of the Luftwaffe, etc..." documentaries were great, with their great original footage, excellent narration, and relatively rare but good interviews, but now, as you say, we tend to get glorified testosterone-filled advertisements for the modern US military and the US arms industry, excessive interviews with so called "experts" - often always the same people, those silly "best ten" shows with their simplistic narration an goofy graphics, or so called explorations of strategy and tactics that look more like reality TV with a bunch of old guys dressed up as Japanese admirales looking at a map table.

One silly thing I'd actually like to see on the Military Channel is a reality game show in which teams of contestents (maybe real pilots, so-called experts, celebrities, or computer gamers) would play against each other using high-end PC combat flight games like Il-2 Sturmovik or Rise of Flight, with the game footage edited for TV in much the same way the computer graphics are used in the Dogfights show. Actually, the graphics on games like Il-2 and Rise of Flight are just about as good as what's on Dogfights anyway. The show might feature actual historical situations as well as "fantasy" ones to examine combat tactics and illustrate the relative merits of aircraft types.

 

[peterpro]

Oh,and an another reason why i dropped it is the that there is no episode about the RAF and it's aces in exile,night bomber and night fighter pilots.Also,no episode about the Luftwaffe's top guns(Erich Hartmann,Gerard Backhorn,Gunther Rall etc...).And what about the IJN!It had the best carrier-born air corps in the start of war!And last,but not least,the nation that suffered most during WWII the USSR.What about the VVS and its bloody 4-year strugle for air-superiority against the Luftwaffe????

 

[renrich]

IMO, on the whole the History Channel and Dogfights is a bunch of BS. I saw the beginning of one the other night with Robin Olds and his P38 and it was so full of it I turned it off. I bet if Olds ever watched that episode, even he would be embarrased.

 

[icepac]

Many WWII fighters were prohibited from doing snap rolls but that doesn't mean they were limited in other aspects of acm.............just the snap roll.