GregP
Major
Original Dornier flight test footage ... seems pretty interesting to me. Enjoy!
Dornier Do. 335 Flight Test Footage
- Thread starter GregP
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Crimea_River
Marshal
Good one. Posted by someone a couple of months back though.
Old Wizard
2nd Lieutenant
Cool video!
A very advanced aircraft. It had hydraulically boosted controls surfaces. It also had a significant sized bomb bay. The rear propellor and upper vertical fin could be blown off at the roots through hollow and explosive bolts for a bailout. It had a compressed air ejection seat. The lower fin could be jettisoned in case of a belly landing. They developed a microwave radar that fitted into the wing leading edges, CIOS made a report on it. I have a speed chart showing the anticipated speed with the DB603L engine was 495mph. The even more powerful DB603M (2800hp) was around the corner as well.
The Ta 152, Do 335 and Ju 388 were the last 3 piston engined aircraft on scheduled for production by the 3rd Reich. They wanted an all jet force but for certain missions piston engined aircraft were still neccesary.
There were projected versions with a jet engine replacing the rear piston engine, versions with the 3000hp Jumo 222E/F and a laminar wing.
The push/pull configuration seems to have been superior to two separate engines in the wing.
The push/pull idea seems great. But the final product seems very big, heavy and complicated. It would be a good night fighter, and attack aircraft. But similar results could be achieved by far simpler aircrafts like the Ki83
It was another dead end, a waste of time and resources during a period when the Germans could afford to waste neither.
It really was huge; I used to display a 1/32 scale model of the Do 335 next to a 1/32 scale Fw 190 D-9, itself hardly a small aircraft, and the Dornier dwarfed it. The Do 335 is now next to a Ba 349 and the difference is even more extreme!!!
Cheers
Steve
It really was huge; I used to display a 1/32 scale model of the Do 335 next to a 1/32 scale Fw 190 D-9, itself hardly a small aircraft, and the Dornier dwarfed it. The Do 335 is now next to a Ba 349 and the difference is even more extreme!!!
Cheers
Steve
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KiwiBiggles
Senior Airman
The waste of time and resources becomes even clearer when you compare the Do 335 to its conventionally-laid out contemporaries, the de Havilland Hornet and the Grumman F7F Tigercat. The unconventional design lead an aircraft with very much the same performance and warload characteristics (about 470 mph, 4 cannons, 2000 lb bombload), with a far worse cockpit view, cooling difficulties, and highly problematic emergency exit. Not to mention how the much greater polar moment must have lead to decreased manoueverability.
Germany would have been much better served investing the effort in a conventional design. Something like a Hornet was well within their capability.
Germany would have been much better served investing the effort in a conventional design. Something like a Hornet was well within their capability.
I am thinking of a Ta254 tho I think I will get some static.
- Thread starter
- #11
GregP
Major
Ta 254? That's a good one. Might have worked, too.
I think the Do. 335 had great potential, but was rather obviously going to need a somewhat protracted development at a time when they were out of time so, in the end, the guys who say it was a waste are probably correct, though I think not for the reason that it was unconventional.
Was it fast? Yes. Was it demonstrably better than other twins? I think, "No, but it wasn't obviously worse, either. Seems to have had decent performance, but not a spectacular leap in any particular single parameter." I suppose it depends on who you read or who you talk with. I like it, but I've rarely met a high-performance aircraft I didn't like, so maybe that's not exactly unexpected.
I think the Do. 335 had great potential, but was rather obviously going to need a somewhat protracted development at a time when they were out of time so, in the end, the guys who say it was a waste are probably correct, though I think not for the reason that it was unconventional.
Was it fast? Yes. Was it demonstrably better than other twins? I think, "No, but it wasn't obviously worse, either. Seems to have had decent performance, but not a spectacular leap in any particular single parameter." I suppose it depends on who you read or who you talk with. I like it, but I've rarely met a high-performance aircraft I didn't like, so maybe that's not exactly unexpected.
There were all sorts of projects along these lines. One did away with the push pull configuration and stuck the turbojets under the wings, (Do P/256/1), another was a simple pusher, (Do P247/6), another had three turbojets in the rear fuselage (possibly designated Do 350) but they were all paper bound fantasies. I don't take them seriously and for the most part neither did the victorious allies after the war.
If the Germans had flown half of their paper planes they would have won the war!
Cheers
Steve
There must be a reason Dornier went for a push, pull configuration. Such decisions would not have been taken flippantly by uninformed, inexperienced men. The Do 335 precedes the KI 83, Tigercat and Hornet by maybe a few months. In addition the Hornet's Merlins were close to fully developed and lacked much development potential whereas the DB603 and Jumo 213 were just beginning theirs.
The Do 335 with DB603LA engine (87 octane plus MW50 circa 2200hp) could get 790kmh, that's 490mph. Beyond that we're the DB603LM (2400hp, with C3 plus MW50) and beyond that the DB603N (2800hp via RPM). A simple cube law suggests speeds of well over 505 mph to 525 for the DB603N.
The DB603LA was already in service on the Ta 152C.
The bomb bay of the Do 335 also would have allowed it to complete a bombing mission unimpeded.
Granted the development of allied jets meant it would never be beyond interception but It was faster than Griffon spitfires. It would have performed mainly as a night fighter or long range maritime recon.
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Was that flown? In the graph there are multiple markers for 603A, AS and E test flight results but none for the LA. And was the speeds with or without compressibility correction?
IMHO at those speeds one got overly optimistic figures with simple cube law calculations because of fast drag rise and decreasing propeller effectiveness. And how many 603Ns were tested?
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- #15
GregP
Major
I sort of agree, Stona, and sort of not.
That is, the Do. 335 was a fast aircraft and probably would have been effective, AND it had an internal bomb bay. So, it could have easily "out-Mosquitoed" the Mosquito as it was much faster and had a LOT of potential. But ... it never made quantity production, so the potential was unrealized, making it a very interesting item and, at the same time, relatively useless to the war effort. I feel the same about the Ta-152. It was a VERY good fighter aircraft that didn't even make a dent. That it did NOT live up to the potential does not mean it didn't HAVE potential. Both designs were good ones that COULD have made a huge difference, but didn't in the end.
So, I can appreciate them for what they were, tremendous jumps in potential for the Luftwaffe. They were both jumps in potential for the Allies, too, but maybe not quite as big a jump since we actually DID put high-performance fighters into production, some too late for the war, just like the Germans. The P-51H was a winner, but came into service only at the end. Same for the F7F Tigercat. Made the war, but not even a single battle. Looking at things with the light of hindsight, the Ta-152 offered about the same performance as the P-51H (edit!) (not even close in armament, but the airframe performance was right close). We had some jets in the works that would have come out VERY soon after the war ended, but it was another year or more before they came out in numbers that would have meant anything.
In the end, both sides had some good hardware almost service-ready when the end of the ETO war came along. None of that detracts from my assessment that the late-war, low-volume German prototypes were very high-performance, advanced aircraft that could have made an impact. Naturally, I'm happy they didn't, and I remain an admirer of all the late war planes, Allied and Axis, that were the pinnacle of the craft in 1945. I'm just very sorry we don't have a few on the warbird circuit flying today.
That is, the Do. 335 was a fast aircraft and probably would have been effective, AND it had an internal bomb bay. So, it could have easily "out-Mosquitoed" the Mosquito as it was much faster and had a LOT of potential. But ... it never made quantity production, so the potential was unrealized, making it a very interesting item and, at the same time, relatively useless to the war effort. I feel the same about the Ta-152. It was a VERY good fighter aircraft that didn't even make a dent. That it did NOT live up to the potential does not mean it didn't HAVE potential. Both designs were good ones that COULD have made a huge difference, but didn't in the end.
So, I can appreciate them for what they were, tremendous jumps in potential for the Luftwaffe. They were both jumps in potential for the Allies, too, but maybe not quite as big a jump since we actually DID put high-performance fighters into production, some too late for the war, just like the Germans. The P-51H was a winner, but came into service only at the end. Same for the F7F Tigercat. Made the war, but not even a single battle. Looking at things with the light of hindsight, the Ta-152 offered about the same performance as the P-51H (edit!) (not even close in armament, but the airframe performance was right close). We had some jets in the works that would have come out VERY soon after the war ended, but it was another year or more before they came out in numbers that would have meant anything.
In the end, both sides had some good hardware almost service-ready when the end of the ETO war came along. None of that detracts from my assessment that the late-war, low-volume German prototypes were very high-performance, advanced aircraft that could have made an impact. Naturally, I'm happy they didn't, and I remain an admirer of all the late war planes, Allied and Axis, that were the pinnacle of the craft in 1945. I'm just very sorry we don't have a few on the warbird circuit flying today.
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DB603N at 10,000m shows about 1900hp versus 1550hp for the DB603LA. That's 22% more power which ignoring compressibility gives just over 7% more speed. The jet thrust would also go up, more than 22%, and this component of the thrust only requires a square law. A Do 335 with this engine would also have a higher max speed altitude in thinner air. So these factors would likely compensate for the effects of compressibility.
The DB603LA was in service on the Ta 152C so it's possible it was flown on a Do 335. The L series differentiated itself by having a high altitude two stage supercharger. The N had two mechanical gear speeds on top of an infinitely variable hydraulic drive. It was only being benched. The gear ratios and impellers were modular and tailorable somewhat like the Merlin. The supercharger had a better performance and the engine was designed for higher RPM and boost.
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
when the 357th was at Neubiberg they had one and were able to play with it. Don Bochkay messed with it in a mock dogfight...
HOW TO DRAW A CROWD 1945
HOW TO DRAW A CROWD 1945
Shortround6
Major General
Sometimes otherwise informed, experienced men went too far down a certain path. There are a number of theoretical reasons behind the configuration the Do 335 used. Unfortunately to realize some of the benefits required a lot of development work and work on details that conventional aircraft didn't need. Much like the He 177 's coupled engines were supposed to offer 3% less drag than 4 separate engines, maybe they did, maybe they did even better, but was the 3-4% reduction in drag worth all the problems?
The DO 335 offered some advantages but then there were disadvantages to the layout too. Conventional twins, much more often than not, used the engine nacelles to house the main gear, leaving a good part of the wing free for fuel tanks near or on the center of gravity. If you want to house the landing gear in a smooth wing (no bulges/fairings) you are using up some of the fuel space which needs to go in the fuselage on or near the center of gravity. The DO 335 then stuck a weapons bay/bomb bay in the bottom of the fuselage on/near the center of gravity. Great for a long range/high speed bomber with a small payload but between the bomb bay and majority of fuel housed in the fuselage the Do 335 wound up with a rather large fuselage for single/two seat aircraft which negates some of the drag reduction of putting the engines inline.
I am not saying one way was better, they were different and most of these late war aircraft were exercises in packaging in a way that the late 30s aircraft were not. The late 30s aircraft didn't have enough power to cram the air frame full of "stuff".
- Thread starter
- #20
GregP
Major
With the production numbers built, ALL Ta-152swere prototypes to me. They only delivered about 42 - 43 out of some 250 airframes and the spare parts were non-existant. So the FIRST time they malfunctioned, they were out of service, making then VERY scarce, rapidly. When the war ended, there were exactly TWO Ta-152Cs in service and all others were non-operational or otherwise grounded plus a few shot down. Total was about 10 victories and 2 to 4 losses. Not very spectacular but, then again, the war was winding down, and the Luftwaffe collapsed during April 1945, when the Ta-152 was making its service debut in a few numbers. Wish we had more than one saved for posterity, and ALSO wish it were flyable, and flown, at least occasionally.
Definitely a good or great airplane, but no "production" unit. They were "short run" prototypes that were pressed into service BEFORE they were ready or even reasonably mature. But they had enormous potential as a piston fighter, right when jets were making them obsolete as a viable combat aircraft. To be sure, it WAS a few years before the pistons "went away," and the Skyraider soldiered on for two decades and more, but the handwriting was on the wall for the big pistons.
I'm glad the Sea Furys were so good, because they were about the last hurrah for the big pistons that made production. It might have extended if the Argentinian I.Ae 30 Nancu (basically a metal Mosquito, enhanced, with Merlins firmly rooted in WWII) had been built, but it was not.
Our collective loss, only one opinion. Also, wish the IAe Pulqui II had been built in some numbers, but it wasn't, either.
Again, our loss.
Definitely a good or great airplane, but no "production" unit. They were "short run" prototypes that were pressed into service BEFORE they were ready or even reasonably mature. But they had enormous potential as a piston fighter, right when jets were making them obsolete as a viable combat aircraft. To be sure, it WAS a few years before the pistons "went away," and the Skyraider soldiered on for two decades and more, but the handwriting was on the wall for the big pistons.
I'm glad the Sea Furys were so good, because they were about the last hurrah for the big pistons that made production. It might have extended if the Argentinian I.Ae 30 Nancu (basically a metal Mosquito, enhanced, with Merlins firmly rooted in WWII) had been built, but it was not.
Our collective loss, only one opinion. Also, wish the IAe Pulqui II had been built in some numbers, but it wasn't, either.
Again, our loss.
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