Dream liner down in India on air port
- Thread starter Snautzer01
- Start date
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I think we are all doing that, but…
… this is a discussion forum. We are discussing the accident, which is the purpose of the thread.
Besides you are doing the same, by saying something was "far more likely," without any evidence to say so.
Point is, nobody here is part of the investigation and us discussing it does nothing undeserving to anyone.
I also think that all of us deep down in side hope this was an accidental pilot error and not murder-suicide. If we are being honest, though, the evidence is not looking good.
Only the investigation will tell. Unfortunately, I have doubts about India finding/releasing the truth in order to save the airline and its image. I hope I'm wrong.
Only the investigation will tell. Unfortunately, I have doubts about India finding/releasing the truth in order to save the airline and its image. I hope I'm wrong.
dick56
Airman
Not pertinent to the Air India flight, but one night back in the late 60s or early 70s, I was in the takeoff congas line at LAX when a United 727 took off into the dark and was not heard from again. Evidently, one or more of the engine alternators/generators failed and some electrical overload happened; long before automatic load dropping. After fishing the plane from the ocean, they found the battery switch off. A few days later we had all our planes with a red guarded switch cover with .020 copper safety wire. The investigators surmised the flight engineer switched off the battery instead of turning on a boost pump or some similar scenario.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
We are not part of the investigation team. Therefore we can speculate all we want.
AerialTorpedoDude69
Airman 1st Class
- 255
- Mar 1, 2022
Is there any chance that the Captain was telling the truth? Could the fuel system control switch somehow flip to the "cutoff" position as registered by the black box?
With circuits, if it's a simple on-off circuit, corrosion, rodent damage, or other kinds of damage can lead to a short.
Also worth noting: if the flight officer detected that the fuel feed system had been turned off and he reengaged them, how long does it take for an engine to restart? Do they have to go through a complete start cycle once the plane is in flight or is it pretty much a guaranteed crash if someone cuts fuel on takeoff?
If it was suicide, why would the pilot not attempt to induce a stall? There would have been more survivors had the plane not clipped a building.
With circuits, if it's a simple on-off circuit, corrosion, rodent damage, or other kinds of damage can lead to a short.
Also worth noting: if the flight officer detected that the fuel feed system had been turned off and he reengaged them, how long does it take for an engine to restart? Do they have to go through a complete start cycle once the plane is in flight or is it pretty much a guaranteed crash if someone cuts fuel on takeoff?
If it was suicide, why would the pilot not attempt to induce a stall? There would have been more survivors had the plane not clipped a building.
The decent/tasteful thing is not to speculate on things such as suicide or similar. In fact, it is disturbing that in recent years people seem all too willing to claim this in crashes - e.g the Jan 29 Midair in Washington DC - without any evidence to support.
If you don't like the discussion, you don't have to partake in it. Just keep scrolling.
Again, this is a discussion forum.
"Air India crash investigators are examining the medical records of the pilot whose plane crashed in Ahmedabad amid claims that he suffered from depression and mental health problems.
Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, who was 56, was months from retirement but had been considering leaving the airline to look after his elderly father following the death of his mother in 2022, The Telegraph can reveal."
"Captain Mohan Ranganathan, a leading aviation safety expert in India, told The Telegraph: "I have heard from several Air India pilots who told me he had some depression and mental health issues. He had taken time off from flying in the last three to four years. He had taken medical leave for that."
www.yahoo.com
Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, who was 56, was months from retirement but had been considering leaving the airline to look after his elderly father following the death of his mother in 2022, The Telegraph can reveal."
"Captain Mohan Ranganathan, a leading aviation safety expert in India, told The Telegraph: "I have heard from several Air India pilots who told me he had some depression and mental health issues. He had taken time off from flying in the last three to four years. He had taken medical leave for that."
Air India pilot’s medical records examined after mental health claims
Air India crash investigators are examining the medical records of the pilot whose plane crashed in Ahmedabad amid claims that he suffered from depression and mental health problems.
There are really only two scenarios here:
1. Pilot intentionally shutting of the fuel.
2. Pilot accidentally shutting of the fuel by mistake.
I personally hope its number 2, but only the investigation will tell. And thats only if we get a full truthful investigation.
We shall see…
1. Pilot intentionally shutting of the fuel.
2. Pilot accidentally shutting of the fuel by mistake.
I personally hope its number 2, but only the investigation will tell. And thats only if we get a full truthful investigation.
We shall see…
MiTasol
Captain
No - it takes two physical actions to change those switches from ON to OFF. First pull the switch handle away from the switch body, then select the second position.
not impossible but highly unlikely
I do not know for that airframe engine combination but unless the APU was running that must first be started and bought on line and then the start sequence initiated. This takes minutes not seconds.
On the fan engines I am certified on the fan section is driven by the airflow at relatively close to normal rpm after in flight shut down but the high pressure system that provided the power to drive the fan decays well below restart rpm very rapidly. Unlike piston engines that start at less than 1% of maximum rpm turbine engines require the high pressure rotor to be, typically, 50 to 60% of maximum rpm before fuel is introduced. Some require even higher rpm.
Yes as just turning on the fuel and placing the ignition switch to continuous will result in a hot start which will destroy the turbines. In flight restart on anything I am certified on therefore requires that the high pressure rotor is at or above start rpm before fuel supply is initiated.
Yes if both engines on a twin and the aircraft has left the ground.
No in the vast majority of cases if only one engine on a twin fails because crews train regularly for engine failure during take off with different scenarios to reflect the knowledge gained from real world accidents over the last 70+years.
Double engine failure when still on the ground will depend on how quick the crew react and how much runway is left. Again they train for this and, because the pilots are always the first to arrive at the scene of an accident, they have a very powerful incentive to get it right.
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Komet
Airman
https://youtu.be/XlsWTKmuRKI?si=mVX6AvOWFUkbxx3-
Dan Gryder above has big safety chanel. ^
I don't always agree with his findings but this is definitely worth watching.
Dan Gryder above has big safety chanel. ^
I don't always agree with his findings but this is definitely worth watching.
FalkeEins
Senior Airman
What is it with people keep wanting to shut down discussion/speculation on this. Fact is the full report is probably 12 months away: the interim report is hopelessly inadequate, ' why did you action the cut off?' ' I did not do so.' As if that was all that was said! Those poor families....
As it stands those are the only options. Hopefully it's number 2 but 1 seems more likely at this point. We may never know for sure between the 2.
MiTasol
Captain
If the news reports are correct then the switches themselves are under investigation because it appears that a batch of switches with dud locking mechanisms were produced and fitted to some aircraft back circa 2017/18. This aircraft predates that and these types of switches are normally extremely reliable so I would doubt they were changed during the aircraft's life.
www.abc.net.au
India orders airlines to check fuel switches on Boeing jets after deadly crash
Scrutiny is intensifying over the fuel switch locks at the centre of an investigation into last month's deadly Air India crash, which killed 260 people.
www.abc.net.au
If the news reports are correct then the switches themselves are under investigation because it appears that a batch of switches with dud locking mechanisms were produced and fitted to some aircraft back circa 2017/18. This aircraft predates that and these types of switches are normally extremely reliable so I would doubt they were changed during the aircraft's life.
India orders airlines to check fuel switches on Boeing jets after deadly crash
Scrutiny is intensifying over the fuel switch locks at the centre of an investigation into last month's deadly Air India crash, which killed 260 people.
You can look at the pics of the switches in the prelim report , they are installed correctly.
Plus if they hadn't been you can tell in about 5 seconds by trying the switches which are intact.
MiTasol
Captain
I have not seen anywhere that they recovered those switches and unfortunately I doubt they will find the actual switches fitted to the accident aircraft but I am sure they are trying to.
I did miss this the first time I read that article I posted so there is reason to suspect the switches.
I did miss this the first time I read that article I posted so there is reason to suspect the switches.
No they recovered them. Pictures of the recovered switches and the throttle control module are in the released report.
Even if the switches were configured wrong, the FAA issued an SAIB in 2018 instructing airlines to inspect their aircraft and replace the switches if necessary.
It's been 7 years…
I'm fairly certain if the switches were configured wrong, it would have been released in the report. Its 100% certain something they checked when they recovered them, and only takes a few seconds to check.
It's been 7 years…
I'm fairly certain if the switches were configured wrong, it would have been released in the report. Its 100% certain something they checked when they recovered them, and only takes a few seconds to check.
MiTasol
Captain
Thank you.
