F4F's in Europe

renrich · May 30, 2010

Knegel, I don't know where you get your data but but the FM2 had a two speed single stage supercharger which caused it's climb rate to drop off earlier than the twin wasp engine which powered the F4F3. It is clear that the early F4F3 was the lightest and fastest of all the Widcats according to Dean which I have found to be very reliable. The main question, in my mind, when comparing performance numbers for the Hurri and the Wildcat was which model with which engine and at what weight. The conditions under which the Wildcats fought at Guadalcanal were abominable in 1942. Henderson Field was being bombed in the daytime by Japanese bombers, bombarded at night by Japanese warships and often shelled by Japanese artillery night and day. The pilots slept in tents or in trenches in the mud. Their rations were miserable including a lot of Jap rice. Most had tropical diseases. The ground crews had it even worse, if possible. Sometimes the pilots were issued 1903 Springfields and had to help fight off banzai attacks. The aircraft were beat up by the awful conditions and spare parts were scarce. Sometimes the takeoffs were subjected to enemy ground fire. Snipers were common. The Wildcats held the line against what Eric Brown called, " possibly the world's outstanding fighter at low and medium altitudes in 1941." Eric Brown was intimately acquainted with the Hurricane.

In 1941 and 1942, the Wildcat did not have combat power. All the numbers for it are at military power.

FLYBOYJ · May 30, 2010

Knegel said:
The F4F never had a official dive limit written down.

No - it never had a VNE - during flight testing it attained a dive speed of 480

BombTaxi · May 30, 2010

In comparing Spit/Hurri dive performance to the 109, don't forget early Merlins had carburetors, while the 109s were direct injection. If a 109 flicked over into a negative G dive, and a Merlin-engined fighter followed, the Merlin would cut out, leaving the 109 to ecape. German pilots used this as a standard evasive tactic during the BoB. The F4F would have had the same problem.

RCAFson · May 30, 2010

renrich said:
Knegel, I don't know where you get your data but but the FM2 had a two speed single stage supercharger which caused it's climb rate to drop off earlier than the twin wasp engine which powered the F4F3. It is clear that the early F4F3 was the lightest and fastest of all the Widcats according to Dean which I have found to be very reliable. The main question, in my mind, when comparing performance numbers for the Hurri and the Wildcat was which model with which engine and at what weight. The conditions under which the Wildcats fought at Guadalcanal were abominable in 1942. Henderson Field was being bombed in the daytime by Japanese bombers, bombarded at night by Japanese warships and often shelled by Japanese artillery night and day. The pilots slept in tents or in trenches in the mud. Their rations were miserable including a lot of Jap rice. Most had tropical diseases. The ground crews had it even worse, if possible. Sometimes the pilots were issued 1903 Springfields and had to help fight off banzai attacks. The aircraft were beat up by the awful conditions and spare parts were scarce. Sometimes the takeoffs were subjected to enemy ground fire. Snipers were common. The Wildcats held the line against what Eric Brown called, " possibly the world's outstanding fighter at low and medium altitudes in 1941." Eric Brown was intimately acquainted with the Hurricane.

In 1941 and 1942, the Wildcat did not have combat power. All the numbers for it are at military power.

The F4F-3 was faster at very high altitude, but over Malta, for example, the FM-2 climb rate and low altitude speed would have been more advantageous. F4F-3 performance was also good because early models, (and the first Martlets) had no armour or self sealing tanks. At any stage of their development the Hurricane always had a performance advantage, if flown with overboost.

Over Henderson, the F4Fs typically had an hour or more warning time of IJNAF raids due to the service of the coastwatchers. The F4Fs were under real stress from Sept to Nov 1942, or about 3 months. The Malta Hurricanes were under siege for about two years, and Malta became the most heavily bombed place on earth during that time. Tropical disease and malnutrition effected most Hurricane pilots and aircrew who were fortunate enough to survive that long. Beurling was a relative short timer on Malta and yet:

The enervation of daily combat combined with the effects of the poor rations and dysentery were telling. Beurling was bedridden for much of August and September, gaining only 1½ victories in August.

Click to expand...

George Beurling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vincenzo · May 30, 2010

RCAFson said:
Speed for a 12lb boost Hurricane 1:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/Hurricane_Speed-HRuch.png

Climb for a 12lb boost Hurricane 1:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/Hurricane_Climb-HRuch.png

Speed FM-2:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/16169-level.jpg
climb FM-2:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/16169-climb.jpg

As you can see these aircraft, a 1940 BoB Hurricane 1 and a 1943-44 FM-2, are very close in performance. A Hurricane II in 1943 would be pulling at least 14lb boost. and even Sea Hurricane was pulling 16lb boost in Aug 1942. Peak HP for a Hurricane II would be nearly 1500hp. Most published performance figures for the Hurricane are with the aircraft pulling 6 or 9lb boost, which greatly underestimates combat performance.

here hurri II at 16lb http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-IIc-raechart-level.jpg
you can see that FM-2 was best

Vincenzo · May 30, 2010

Knegel said:
The F4F-3 datas are calculated, the FM-2 datas and the HurriII datas are tested, though there is also a calculated Hurri speed curve with 340mph max.

I coubt the F4F-3 was as fast as the FM-2, the latter had a better engine, but all i say is that the F4F wasnt realy better than the Hurri II, so in Europe it wasnt a good choise.

there are also test for F4F-34

RCAFson · May 30, 2010

Knegel said:
This is a very bad comparison, cause 12lb was real WEP(extreme short period) for the MerlinIII, while the FM-2 datas are made with a real usable power setting. I often see the 12lb datas posted, only cause someone made some speed estimations with it(this dont got tested). Noone should forget that the F4F´s, same like the 109E also had a short edurance power, though, we miss good tests with this settings(for the 109E we have such a yugoslavian datas sheet, where the 109E made 500km/h at sea level).

But for the F4F as possibility as RAF fighter 1943 dont matter anyway, time in question is 1941 to 42 and here the HurriII with 9lb is a good comparison to the combat power F4F-3 or 4.
Even with the highest boost, in 1943 the Hurri was extreme outdated as fighter, same we can say for the F4F/FM-2 in Europe. Since the IJNAF still did fly mainly Zeros in 1943/44/45, but already with less good pilot skill, the FM-2 was still a good carrier plane.

12lb boost performance was measured:

and the results were used for the speed estimates. 12lb boost was available for unlimted time, although pilots were cautioned not to use it for more than 5 minutes. The FM-2 data includes WEP performance and this is the only reason it comes close to the Hurricane in performance. The later Merlin engines were enginnered to use higher boost and so 14lb-16lb on a 1942 merlin XX was equivalent to 12lb boost in 1940.
12lb boost was used regularly in combat:
Hurricane Mk I Performance

yet the data for the Hurricane II here:
Hurricane II Z-3564 Trials Report
is calculated at 9lb boost.

FLYBOYJ · May 30, 2010

RCAFson said:
Over Henderson, the F4Fs typically had an hour or more warning time of IJNAF raids due to the service of the coastwatchers. The F4Fs were under real stress from Sept to Nov 1942, or about 3 months.

Not always true. In the beginning of the conflict there were little or no cost watchers and the Marines were trying to conduct air operations while battling an enemy within the airfield perimeter.

RCAFson said:
The Malta Hurricanes were under siege for about two years, and Malta became the most heavily bombed place on earth during that time. Tropical disease and malnutrition effected most Hurricane pilots and aircrew who were fortunate enough to survive that long.

Gee, I guess Guadalcanal didn't have things like tropical disease, malnutrition, and oh yes, dysentery, a popular favorite

RCAFson said:
Beurling was a relative short timer on Malta and yet:

George Beurling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OH PLEASE - spare us the Wikipedia reference on Beurling, we know who he was!!!!

Knegel · May 30, 2010

renrich said:
Knegel, I don't know where you get your data but but the FM2 had a two speed single stage supercharger which caused it's climb rate to drop off earlier than the twin wasp engine which powered the F4F3. It is clear that the early F4F3 was the lightest and fastest of all the Widcats according to Dean which I have found to be very reliable. The main question, in my mind, when comparing performance numbers for the Hurri and the Wildcat was which model with which engine and at what weight. The conditions under which the Wildcats fought at Guadalcanal were abominable in 1942. Henderson Field was being bombed in the daytime by Japanese bombers, bombarded at night by Japanese warships and often shelled by Japanese artillery night and day. The pilots slept in tents or in trenches in the mud. Their rations were miserable including a lot of Jap rice. Most had tropical diseases. The ground crews had it even worse, if possible. Sometimes the pilots were issued 1903 Springfields and had to help fight off banzai attacks. The aircraft were beat up by the awful conditions and spare parts were scarce. Sometimes the takeoffs were subjected to enemy ground fire. Snipers were common. The Wildcats held the line against what Eric Brown called, " possibly the world's outstanding fighter at low and medium altitudes in 1941." Eric Brown was intimately acquainted with the Hurricane.

In 1941 and 1942, the Wildcat did not have combat power. All the numbers for it are at military power.

The FM-2 was the late war F4F, it had 200HP more than the F4F-3.
While the FM-2 had 200kg more weight, it did carry more amunition and plating and this it had a way better climb performence + additional WEP.
The FM-2 had a all over better performence than the F4F-3.

What the us pilots and personal did experience on Henderson airfield was absolut normal for russian and german crews at the east front and also in Africa.

Eric Brown did say much, still he had no real dogfight experience with other fighters.

" possibly the world's outstanding fighter at low and medium altitudes in 1941."

Possible, yes, but probably not, cause in 1941 there was the 109F-2, 109F-4, FW190A2 and Yak-1.

They all was way better fighters in low level, but possibly Mr.Brown never didnt understand the modern fightertactics when he made this statement, like many other British people in 1940/41, where WWI turfight still did count as the way to go(they didnt know what to do with the P38, same with the P39, Wirlwind and other fast but rather bad turning planes and they also thought the Hurri is better than the 109E, cause it made the aerobatics better).

Knegel · May 30, 2010

RCAFson said:
12lb boost performance was measured:

and the results were used for the speed estimates. 12lb boost was available for unlimted time, although pilots were cautioned not to use it for more than 5 minutes. The FM-2 data includes WEP performance and this is the only reason it comes close to the Hurricane in performance. The later Merlin engines were enginnered to use higher boost and so 14lb-16lb on a 1942 merlin XX was equivalent to 12lb boost in 1940.
12lb boost was used regularly in combat:
Hurricane Mk I Performance

yet the data for the Hurricane II here:
Hurricane II Z-3564 Trials Report
is calculated at 9lb boost.

Afaik the 12lb boost on the MerlinIII was absolut short period and only for emergency, they even had to report the usage to the mechianics.

Surly the pilots did use it, cause vs the 109 they needed it, and its better to blow the engine than to get shot down anyway. Same the russians did and i bet also the german pilots did use their WEP if needed, even if it was not allowed according to the manual.

I bet the pilots avoided to use it if they was over enemy territory.

I agree that the HurriII was better than the F4F, still it was a poor fighter, even vs the 109E, not to talk about the 109F and FW190A.

RCAFson · May 30, 2010

FLYBOYJ said:
Not always true. In the beginning of the conflict there were little or no cost watchers and the Marines were trying to conduct air operations while battling an enemy within the airfield perimeter.

Gee, I guess Guadalcanal didn't have things like tropical disease, malnutrition, and oh yes, dysentery, a popular favorite

OH PLEASE - spare us the Wikipedia reference on Beurling, we know who he was!!!!

The coast watchers were there from the beginning:

Coastwatchers proved extremely useful to U.S. Marine forces in providing reports on the number and movement of Japanese troops. Officers from the 1st Marine Division obtained accurate information on the location of enemy forces in their objective areas, and were provided vital reports on approaching Japanese bombing raids. On 8 August 1942, Coastwatcher Jack Reed on Bougainville alerted American forces to an upcoming raid by 40 Japanese bombers, which resulted in 36 of the enemy planes being destroyed. The "early warning system" provided by the Coastwatchers helped Marine forces on Guadalcanal to hold onto the Henderson Field airstrip.

Click to expand...

First Offensive: The Marine Campaign for Guadalcanal (The Landing and August Battles)

Guadalcanal did have tropical disease but given the short time of the campaign things like malnutrition were less of an issue than on Malta. The reference to Beurling was to show you the conditions prevalent on Malta, and that sickness and malnutrition was a real factor, for everyone.

RCAFson · May 30, 2010

Knegel said:
Afaik the 12lb boost on the MerlinIII was absolut short period and only for emergency, they even had to report the usage to the mechianics.

Overboost was available until the emergency ended or the engine blew up; there was no mechanical time limit. IIRC, there are reports of pilots using it for 30min. Yes, pilots were supposed to log overboost use and to try and limit it to 5 min, but this wasn't always done.

FLYBOYJ · May 30, 2010

RCAFson said:
The coast watchers were there from the beginning:

First Offensive: The Marine Campaign for Guadalcanal (The Landing and August Battles)

He was among the first ones to support the campaign, there was still the matter of fighting Japanese just out side your perimeter.

RCAFson said:
Guadalcanal did have tropical disease but given the short time of the campaign things like malnutrition were less of an issue than on Malta. The reference to Beurling was to show you the conditions prevalent on Malta, and that sickness and malnutrition was a real factor, for everyone.

Well aware of that - but again, would you pick a Japanese POW camp over a German one had either campaign failed?

RCAFson · May 30, 2010

FLYBOYJ said:
Well aware of that - but again, would you pick a Japanese POW camp over a German one had either campaign failed?

Yes a German PoW camp was preferable to being executed or imprisoned by the Japanese, but Malta endured a much longer siege than Guadalcanal.

FLYBOYJ · May 30, 2010

RCAFson said:
Yes a German PoW camp was preferable to being executed or imprisoned by the Japanese, but Malta endured a much longer siege than Guadalcanal.

Malta was able to be supplied - in the short campaign at Guadalcanal, that initially wasn't a luxury.

pbfoot · May 30, 2010

I know you have a dislike for Buerling, Joe but I really think its unfounded .

FLYBOYJ · May 30, 2010

pbfoot said:
I know you have a dislike for Buerling, Joe but I really think its unfounded .

Errrr, you show me ANYWHERE on this forum where I ever said ANYTHING negative about Buerling?!?!?!? If anything I've always had great admiration for the guy!!!

The point was bringing in a WIKIPEDIA reference about one of the most popular allied aces into this discussion. There was NOTHING negative said about Buerling!!!!

RCAFson · May 30, 2010

Some basic facts about the siege of Malta:

296 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Takali Airfield in 24 hours on 20-21 March 1942, making it the most bombed Allied airfield ever.

6,728 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Malta in April, 1942 (36 times the size of the bombing of Coventry). 1,700 tons dropped on Dresden.

3,156 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on harbour areas in Malta in April, 1942.

841 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Takali airfield in April, 1942.

805 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Luqa airfield in April, 1942.

18,000 – Number of tons of bombs dropped during entire Blitz of England

3,340 – Number of air raid alerts over Malta during siege.

170 – The average number of enemy aircraft flying over Malta every day between December 1941 and April 1942.

30,027 – Number of Maltese buildings destroyed and damaged during the siege.

17 miles by 9 – approximate size of Malta.

454 – Number of enemy aircraft destroyed or damaged by Malta's anti-aircraft gunners during siege.

102 – Number of enemy aircraft confirmed shot down by Malta's anti-aircraft gunners during April 1942.

65 – Number of destroyed or damaged enemy aircraft on 10 May, 1942

82 – Number of enemy aircraft destroyed between 10-14 October 1942

350 – Number of enemy aircraft destroyed or damaged during Axis blitz of October, 1942.

174 – Number of RAF fighter pilots killed in action over Malta between June194 and November 1942.

In two months in 1942 – March and April – more bombs were dropped on Malta (an island a fraction of the size of London) than were dropped on London during the entire Blitz.

Basically, if the entire IJNAF air offensive against Guadalcanal was added to Malta's attack it would not have even been noticed given the scale of attack against Malta: 170 – The average number of enemy aircraft flying over Malta every day between December 1941 and April 1942 = 26350 axis sorties in 5 months alone.
Merlins Over Malta - The Defenders Returned!

From October 1941 to Oct 1942, only about 100,000 (10 average sized transports) tons of supplies arrived to sustain an Island with a total population ofabout 300,000.
Merlins Over Malta - The Defenders Returned!

FLYBOYJ · May 30, 2010

RCAFson said:
Some basic facts about the siege of Malta:

296 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Takali Airfield in 24 hours on 20-21 March 1942, making it the most bombed Allied airfield ever.

6,728 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Malta in April, 1942 (36 times the size of the bombing of Coventry). 1,700 tons dropped on Dresden.

3,156 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on harbour areas in Malta in April, 1942.

841 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Takali airfield in April, 1942.

805 – Number of tons of bombs dropped on Luqa airfield in April, 1942.

18,000 – Number of tons of bombs dropped during entire Blitz of England

3,340 – Number of air raid alerts over Malta during siege.

170 – The average number of enemy aircraft flying over Malta every day between December 1941 and April 1942.

30,027 – Number of Maltese buildings destroyed and damaged during the siege.

17 miles by 9 – approximate size of Malta.

454 – Number of enemy aircraft destroyed or damaged by Malta's anti-aircraft gunners during siege.

102 – Number of enemy aircraft confirmed shot down by Malta's anti-aircraft gunners during April 1942.

65 – Number of destroyed or damaged enemy aircraft on 10 May, 1942

82 – Number of enemy aircraft destroyed between 10-14 October 1942

350 – Number of enemy aircraft destroyed or damaged during Axis blitz of October, 1942.

174 – Number of RAF fighter pilots killed in action over Malta between June194 and November 1942.

In two months in 1942 – March and April – more bombs were dropped on Malta (an island a fraction of the size of London) than were dropped on London during the entire Blitz.

Basically, if the entire IJNAF air offensive against Guadalcanal was added to Malta's attack it would not have even been noticed given the scale of attack against Malta: 170 – The average number of enemy aircraft flying over Malta every day between December 1941 and April 1942 = 26350 axis sorties in 5 months alone.
Merlins Over Malta - The Defenders Returned!

From October 1941 to Oct 1942, only about 100,000 (10 average sized transports) tons of supplies arrived to sustain an Island with a total population ofabout 300,000.
Merlins Over Malta - The Defenders Returned!

And your point????

pbfoot · May 30, 2010

FLYBOYJ said:
Errrr, you show me ANYWHERE on this forum where I ever said ANYTHING negative about Buerling?!?!?!? If anything I've always had great admiration for the guy!!!

The point was bringing in a WIKIPEDIA reference about one of the most popular allied aces into this discussion. There was NOTHING negative said about Buerling!!!!

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/george-buzz-beurling-leading-canadian-ace-2281-2.html
The 3rd post , just off the hop

F4F's in Europe

Chief Master Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Tech Sergeant

Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Master Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Banned

Banned

Master Sergeant

Master Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Master Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

1st Lieutenant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Master Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

1st Lieutenant

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