F4F's in Europe

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gjs238 said:
All that being said, North American was still asked to produce P-40's under license.
Click to expand...

Yes, they were and the whole thing about the Mustang being designed and built in 120 days was that if North American couldn't do it they would have to build P-40s so as not to delay things any further.

The P-40 was a unknown quantity when the French/British ordered it but it was the only fighter that looked to available in quantity in a hurry. French order is placed Oct,9 1939, about 6 months after the US Army's first order. April of 1940 the US Army agrees to defer delivery of 324 P-40s so export orders can be filled first. First French contract plane flies June 6, 1940. Sept. 17 1940 British start testing the Hawk H81A in the US. The First Tomahawks reach England in Sept 1940. Note that these are ex-French aircraft.

A brief history of the Mustang may help also.

Jan, 1940 talks open between the British and North American.
April 24, 1940 the British accept the design proposal.
May4,1940 British approve preliminary design.
May 29, 1940 British order 320 NA-73 aircraft.
Sept. 9, 1940 prototype is rolled out of hanger without engine and with borrowed wheels.
oct, 26 first flight.
April 25, 1941 first flight by British plane.
Sept 1941, second British Mustang is sent by sea (via Panama canal) to England.
Nov 11, 1941 4 more Mustangs arrive in England making a total of 5.

When should the decision to purchase F4F's have been made and what factory should have made them?
 
Shortround6 said:
When should the decision to purchase F4F's have been made and what factory should have made them?
Click to expand...

My query was to explore the reason(s) for the small number of F4F's used in Europe, relative to P-39, P-40, P-38, and perhaps others.

One theory given was lack of production capacity.
But if overtures were being made for P-40 license production, then it seems feasible that license production of the F4F (or another plane) could have been pursued.

Now, the WANT for or NEED of the F4F is another matter.

BTW: Something that I don't think came up in this thread was the surging issues of the 2-stage supercharger in the F4F. I recall something about that in another thread. I don't think the issue was ever totally resolved. That right there may solve the whole "F4F high altitude in Europe" query.
 
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GJS, aside from the fact that F4Fs were not available, most aviation people thought in 1940, particularly in Europe, that no ship board fighter could compete with a fighter designed for use from land bases.
 
The RAF and FAA had a central source of aircraft data, presumably from RAE test data, in the form of data cards and this is an interesting look at Hurricane and Martlet/Wildcat performance using data from a single source.

Hurricane, Martlet and Wildcat data from RAF and FAA data cards:


Hurricane 1 (6.8.41)
8 x .303mg with 334rpg
max weight = 6793lb (with armour and S.S.tanks)
Mean weight = 6440lb
wing area 258 sq ft
Engine = Merlin III 1030bhp @ 16250
SC= single stage, single speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 316mph @ 17750ft
MWM speed = 273mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 6.8min (-est)
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = 9.7min
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2080 fpm (continuous-est)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 3450 fpm (combat power-est)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 32500
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 33500
Fuel = 97imp gals
range = 585 miles with a 20gal reserve @ 212mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-I-ads.jpg
estimated data is from: Hurricane L-2026 Trials Report

Hurricane IIB (This data is all taken from Hurricane II. Z.3564. not from data card)
12 x .303mg with 334rpg
max weight = 7333lb (with armour and S.S.tanks)
Mean weight = 7000lb (-est)
wing area 258 sq ft
Engine = Merlin XX 1255bhp @ 10k ft, 1190bhp @ 18500ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (Maximum weight) = 330mph @ 20800ft
MWM speed = 273mph (-est)
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 5.9min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = 8.5min
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2710 fpm (continuous)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 3500 fpm (combat power-est)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 35900ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 38k ft (-est)
Fuel = 97imp gals
range = 540 miles with a 20gal reserve @ 212mph (-est)
Hurricane II Z-3564 Trials Report

Martlet 1 (6.8.41)
4 x .5"mg with 300rpg
max weight = 6811lb (Fixed wing, note IIRC, maybe no armour or S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = n/d
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = Cyclone G205a 1200bhp @ 4200ft, 1000bhp at 14k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 313mph @ 14500ft
MWM speed = 257mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 6.7min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = n/d
Service ceiling @ max weight = 31500
Service ceiling @ mean weight = n/d
Fuel = 136imp gals (this suggests no S.S. tanks)
range = 870 miles with a 29gal reserve @ 167-175mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/martlet-I-ads.jpg

Martlet II (22.8.41)
4 x .5"mg with 300rpg
max weight = 7255lb (note Folding wing, maybe with armour and/or S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = n/d
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = Twin Wasp S304-G 1200bhp @ 4900ft, 1050bhp at 13.1k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 317mph @ 14500ft
MWM speed = 260mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 7.5min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = n/d
Service ceiling @ max weight = 30500
Service ceiling @ mean weight = n/d
Fuel = 136imp gals (this suggests no S.S. tanks)
range = 850 miles with a 29gal reserve @ 170mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/martlet-II-ads.jpg

Wildcat II (6.2.44)
6 x .5"mg with 240rpg
max weight = 7745lb (note Folding wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 7245lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = PW R1830-90 1200bhp @ 4900ft, 1050bhp at 13.1k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 300mph @ 14500ft
MWM speed = 246mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 8 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2030fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2390fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 29000
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 30200
Fuel = 133imp gals
range = 795 miles with a 25gal reserve @ 213mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-II-ads.jpg

Wildcat III (F4F-3A)(6.2.44)
4 x .5"mg with 240rpg
max weight = 7200lb (Fixed wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 6700lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = PW R1830-90 1200bhp @ 4900ft, 1050bhp at 13.1k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 307mph @ 14kft
MWM speed = 255mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 6.8 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2400fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2700fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 30600ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 32000ft
Fuel = 133imp gals
range = 890 miles with a 23gal reserve @ 208mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-III-ads.jpg

Wildcat IV (F4F-4b)(6.2.44)
6 x .5"mg with 240rpg
max weight = 7730lb (Folding wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 7270lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = Cyclone (G205A) R1820-87 1240bhp @ 2750ft, 1010bhp at 14k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 298mph @ 15kft
MWM speed = 238mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 9.4 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 1760fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2570fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 28600ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 30000ft
Fuel = 120imp gals
range = 695 miles with a 25gal reserve @ 213mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-IV-ads.jpg

Wildcat V (11.11.44)
4 x .5"mg with 430rpg
max weight = 7811lb (Folding wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 7355lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = PW (G7G) R1830-86 1200bhp @ 2250ft, 1100bhp @ 12k ft, 1050bhp at 20k ft
SC= single stage, three speed. (?)
Max speed (mean weight) = 332mph @ 21kft (313mph @ 13k ft)
MWM speed = 262mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 7.7 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2170fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2420fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 32300ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 33400ft
Fuel = n/d
range = n/d
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-V-ads.jpg

Wildcat VI (FM2) (6.2.44)
4 x .5"mg with 240rpg
max weight = 7049lb (Folding wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 6680lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = Cyclone R1820-56 1300bhp @ 4000ft, 1000bhp @ 17.5k ft
SC= single stage, two speed. (?)
Max speed (mean weight) = 307mph @ 18.5kft
MWM speed = 247mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 6.5 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2750fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 3120fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 32400ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 33300ft
Fuel = 98imp gal
range = 595 miles with a 22gal reserve @ 203mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-VI-ads.jpg

Wildcat VIa (FM2 w/o WI) (13.2.45)
4 x .5"mg with 400rpg
max weight = 7313lb (Folding wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 6940lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = Cyclone R1820-56a no.1 1300bhp @ 1500ft, 1000bhp @ 14.8k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 319mph @ 16750ft (307mph @ 3500 ft)
MWM speed = 267mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 6.6 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2800fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 3040fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 32100ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 33000ft
Fuel = n/d
range = n/d
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-VIa-ads.jpg

Wildcat VI (FM2 with WI) (13.3.45)
4 x .5"mg with 400rpg
max weight = 7413lb (Folding wing with armour and S.S. tanks)
Mean weight = 6990lb
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = Cyclone R1820-56b 1300bhp @ 1500ft, 1200bhp @ 10.8k ft
SC= single stage, two speed.
Max speed (mean weight) = 328mph @ 12800ft (307mph @ 3.5k ft)
MWM speed = 267mph
Time to 15k ft (max weight) = 6.7 min
Time to 20k ft (max weight) = n/d
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 2760fpm (normal)
Climb rate (max weight) @ SL = 3010fpm (combat)
Service ceiling @ max weight = 31900ft
Service ceiling @ mean weight = 32800ft
Fuel = n/d
range = n/d
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/wildcat-VIb-ads.jpg

Where noted, some of the data is estimated.
 
Last edited:
renrich said:
GJS, aside from the fact that F4Fs were not available, most aviation people thought in 1940, particularly in Europe, that no ship board fighter could compete with a fighter designed for use from land bases.
Click to expand...

Again, availability is relative.
Evidently, not enough P-40's were available, hence the solicitation for license production.
If F4F's were desired, availability as we know it today may have turned out different.
Again, this is not advocating the F4F, but availability is not static, it can change with demand.

I suspect that, whether there were naval aircraft preconceptions or not, the F4F simply didn't provide the performance to make it desirable for use in larger numbers than it was. I'm just trying to flesh this out.
 
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this is the Wildcat with the 2 stage supercharger and the good altitude performance.

P&W two stage superchargers had the second stage (last before engine) fitted with one gear and it always turned the same speed in relation to the engine.
The 1st stage or auxiliary stage , and in the P&W case it was an auxiliary stage, had a 2 speed drive plus neutral. It was set up so that at low altitude it was not driven by the engine and used no power. Take off and low altitude boost was supplied by the second stage alone. In this case some where under 12,000ft the auxiliary supercharger drive was engaged in low gear and at just under 20,000ft the drive was shifted to high gear. I am not sure if neutral counts as a speed
Many spec sheets will show 3 gear ratios but one is for the second stage drive and two are for the Auxiliary supercharger drive.
 
Comparing ratios for Malta and Guadalcanal is rather pointless IMO as the situations were very different, and not just re: numbers of planes or sorties. Still....the overall ratios are not unusual for either situation when looking at total estimated losses. Lundstrom calculated a 1.2:1 in favor of the Zero. Adding up the Hurricane vs enemy fighter losses in 1941, the ratio is 1.5:1 in favor of the Axis.

Fun with numbers!
 
US Data
F4F-3
4 x .5"mg
gross weight = 6895lb (7432) (with armor plate and oil fuel protection)
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = PW R1830-76
SC= two stage, two speed.
Max speed = 330mph @ 19000ft (328mph @ 19000ft)
Max speed SL = 278mph (277mph)
Time to 10k ft = 3.5 min (4.2)
Time to 20k ft = 7.6 min (8.4)
Climb rate @ SL = 3300 fpm (3070)
Service ceiling = 31000 (30500)
Fuel = 110 gals (147)
range = 880 miles @ 180mph (1280 @ 185mph)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-3-detail-specification.pdf

F4F-4
4 x .5"mg with 800 rnds (6x .5'' with 1440 rnds)
gross weight = 7426lb (7972)
wing area 260 sq ft
Engine = PW R1830-76
SC= two stage, two speed.
Max speed = 318mph @ 19400ft (316mph @ 19400ft)
Max speed SL = 275mph (274mph)
Time to 10k ft = 5.7 min (6.5)
Time to 20k ft = 12.7 min (14.7)
Climb rate @ SL = 1920 fpm (1690)
Service ceiling = 34800 (33600)
Fuel = 110 gals (144)
range = 765 miles @ 190mph (925 @ 192mph)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-4-detail-specification.pdf

F4F-4
gross weight = 7369lb (7370)
Max speed = 318mph @ 21100ft (319mph @ 19400ft)
Climb rate @ SL = 1850 fpm (1850)
Service ceiling = 34800 (33600)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-4-5262.pdf

F4F-4
gross weight = 7933
Max speed = 316mph @ 17200ft
Climb rate @ SL = 1820 fpm
Climb rate @ 16300ft = 1500 fpm
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-4-02135.pdf

F4F-4
6x .5" with 1440 rnds
gross weight = 7975
engine: P&W R-1830-86, 1040 @ 18400 ft (normal) 1150 @ 11500 ft (military)
Max speed = 320mph @ 18800ft
Max speed @ SL 284 mph (military) 274 mph (normal)
Time to 10k ft = 5.6 min (normal)
Time to 20k ft = 12.4 min (normal)
Service ceiling = 34000
fuel 144 gals
range 830 @ 161mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-4.pdf

FM-2
4x .5" with 1600 rnds
gross weight = 7418
engine: P&W R-1820-56
Max speed = 329mph @ 15300ft (military) 328mp @ 10800ft (WEP)
Max speed @ SL 312 mph (WEP)
Climb max rate 3480 fpm (military) 3670 fpm (WEP)
fuel 117 gals
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/fm-2-16169.pdf

FM-2
4x .5" with 1600 rnds
Gross weight 7282 lbs
Max speed = 327mph @ 19500 (normal) 328mph @ 16600 (military)
Service ceiling = 35000ft (normal) 35100ft (military)
Climb rate @ sL = 3150 fpm (normal) 3600 fmp (military)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/fm-2-15953.pdf
 
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