F4U 17740: Roundel Discrepancy (1 Viewer)

[Ambaryerno]

F4U-1AA #17740 is a well-known aircraft from the famous Black Sheep "Baseball Cap" photo. It's particularly distinct for having a roundel on the underside of the left wing. However there's another discrepancy with the insignia I'm curious about:

As can be clearly seen in this photo, 17740 has bars without surrounds. And that's the conundrum:

From what I can tell, the bars without surrounds were basically done to aircraft in the field that only had the roundel after the insignia measure of June, 1943, added the bars and red surrounds. Basically a transitional/temporary form. The problem is 17740 is an F4U-1A, the first batch of which were produced in August and therefore would have left the factory with red surrounds applied there.

So how did 17740 (and #509 ahead of her in this photo) end up without surrounds? I could understand if she was a -1 that had been modified with the Malcolm Hood canopy in the field (how often would that have actually been done?) but the serial number indicates she'd have been built after the switch to the new canopy at the factory.

 

[Wurger]

The red outline for the US markings were used for the short period of time ... the ending of the June to mid of the August 1943. By September 1943, the red outline was replaced with a blue one. As memo serves the red surrounds wasn't very popular and many squadrons had this removed. Regarding the 17740 of the VMF-214 that also served in VMF-211 and 222 ... according to a couple of sources , she had a replaced port wing from an older Corsair, possibly a birdcage with the old blue gray/gray scheme. It sounds right because in the other pics it may be noticed that the old marking without the white bars on the undersides is still there while on the starboard bottom the new one is applied. The replacing resulted in an easy modification of the already existed marking on the wing top by adding of the white bars without the red outline only to keep the same shape of all applied US markings. Also the four position wing insignia markings were't reduced to two until 5 January 1943, effective 1 February 1943, and the Navy and Marines were quite slow in changing any marking. Generally they were slow in changing any national marking, and often refusing to apply the red surround.

the pic source: The F4U Corsair: VMF-214 Black Sheep During WWII

 

[Ambaryerno]

according to a couple of sources , she had a replaced port wing from an older Corsair, possibly a birdcage with the old blue gray/gray scheme. It sounds right because in the other pics it may be noticed that the old marking without the white bars on the undersides is still there while on the starboard bottom the new one is applied.

That may answer the case of the port wing, (which I already knew, though it wasn't in the OP) but not the fuselage and starboard wing. 740 clearly has the bars without surrounds on the fuselage itself. There are also apparently no surrounds on the wing insignia on the underside of the starboard wing, which wasn't replaced.

There's no indication that the surrounds were simply painted out, which ought to be visible in the photographs, especially on the fuselage. And that's the gist I was getting at: 17740 should have rolled off the factory floor with red surrounds, yet that appears to have not been the case.

 

[Wurger]

Here is the "735" of the VMF-214. The pic seems to be taken at the same time the one of the "740". The lack of the outline also can be noticed.

The pic source: the net.

 

[cvairwerks]

Sometimes changes don't get done at the factory on schedule. Often a change will have a "Break in" serial number, which is where the change should happen. There's a chance that 740 was already well past the break in point when the change came about and being a paint change, was never caught up.

 

[EwenS]

AIUI all Corsair outer wings were built by the same company, Briggs, and supplied fully painted and with markings to Vought, and the other manufacturers, for incorporation into airframes on the production line.

So it seems entirely possible that Vought had a stock of wings with the old markings to use up, while Briggs were switching their production to the new markings which arrived later.

I suppose the question was how keen the USN were to get more aircraft rather than ensuring the markings were spot on.

 

[Barrett]

From my time in the antique and warbird communities (roughly 1967-1984) I met numerous WW II mechanics and factory workers. What people (especially modelers) seldom realize is that keeping up with the latest paint regulations was REAL low on the priority list. On top of that, a huge % of them were disinterested teenagers or early 20-somethings who would MUCH (much) rather been somewhere else
doing something else.
Job One was
Rolling that hummer out the factory door
or
Buttoning up that hummer in time for the next flight.

 

[MIflyer]

So it seems entirely possible that Vought had a stock of wings with the old markings to use up, while Briggs were switching their production to the new markings which arrived later.

In the book, "The Time Capsule fighter Corsair KD431" they concluded that it possibly had parts that had been designated for use on Brewster produced Corsairs but when Brewster ceased production they had been sent to other producers.

 

[special ed]

I have mentioned before somewhere on the forum, when in the USAF Reserve our C-119s were to be painted with white tops, grey undersides, with a blue stripe between the white top and the natural metal fuselage sides. As one who was volunteered to paint the blue stripe, while up on the stand, I overheard "We ain't got no more blue." Sarge says, "Put in grey." The C-119 that I painted the blue stripe on had about three gallons blue to two gallons of underside grey. When out on the ramp later, no one could tell which stripes were all blue and which one had blue-grey. They all went to the boneyard the year after I left, so they were dressed pretty for Arizona.

 

[MIflyer]

I overheard "We ain't got no more blue." Sarge says, "Put in grey."

A guy I worked with had been in F-102 maintenance. They unit was stationed in Spain and were told that they would have to send their aircraft to Germany to get them painted. They had the light gray with black markings paint scheme and found a local Spanish company that could do the job and save them time and money. But the airplanes came back in what was more or less Baby Blue with dark blue markings. They thought they looked great but USAFE HQ was having none of that and had them send them out to be repainted again. Of course this was years before Air Superiority Blue became a legit paint scheme.

 

[rmark]

My dad's USAF crash rescue boat in the Korean War was painted a British light grey instead of US battleship grey. The proper US paint wasn't available and one of the crew was British and talked a British ship out of some paint.

 

[GrauGeist]

To add to the mix, a family friend who was with JG27, mentioned that in early 1945, they were not able to get paint for their aircraft, so they bartered for some paint from a local Panzer unit.

That should get some die-hard modelers into a foaming frenzy!