F4U-4 vs YaK-9U

[claidemore]

I believe Lily Litvyak shot down a German pilot by the name of Hans Meier (with a Yak 1). Common name though.

 

[C0WB0Y]

Dunno if it was the same guy.


Oh and some hangar pics:

 

[Catch22]

You're a lucky man Cowboy!

 

[claidemore]

The Klimov was a dog, based on a dog (H.S. 12Y). They should have built a Yak around the AM-38.

What specifically about the Klimov engines made them dogs?

Just doing a quick comparison with the AM-38.

The Klimov 105 : 0.89hp/lb, AM38 : 0.94 hp/lb
Klimov weight: 1365 lbs, AM-38 weight: 1940 lbs.
Klimov displacement: 2142 cu/in, AM-38 : 2847 cu/ins.
Klimov supercharger: single stage two speed, AM-38: single speed.
Klimov 2600 rpm takeoff: AM-38 2350rpm.

The Klimov was lighter, had higher rpm, higher compression ratio, better supercharger.

They built over 90,000 of the M-105s. For the lightweight Soviet fighter designs like the Yak, it seems ideally suited.

 

[renrich]

That Corsair in the picture is an F4U5N, the night fighter version. It has slightly less performance than the F4U5.

 

[C0WB0Y]

That Corsair in the picture is an F4U5N, the night fighter version. It has slightly less performance than the F4U5.

Well, it's the only -5 model still flying, so it's the only thing we have left to compare with.

 

[Catch22]

What is this then?

I think there's more than one -5 about.

EDIT: Just noticed the date was 05 and not 08, let me do some research.

 

[Catch22]

According to Wiki:

F4U-5P c/n ?? Bu.124486, converted to F4U-5NL, ex-VMF(N)-513 - MCAS El Toro, SOC: 1956, Sold Honduras 27 March 1956, ex-Honduras AF FAH-606 "El Guajiro", " WF 14 Flying Nightmares ", Mike George, Springfield, IL (A)

F4U-5NL c/n ?? Bu.124541 (F-AZYS), sold: 1957 Argentina, ex-Argentine Navy 0433 ex-2° Escuadrilla de Ataque "2-A-202" - Bahia Blanca, ex-Fuerza Aeronaval 3 "3-A-204" - Trelew, SOC: 1969, ex-Museo De La Aviacion Naval "2-A-202", " 14.F.6 "Les Ailes de l'Aero, Cuers, France (A)

F4U-5 c/n ?? Bu124692 (N45NL), accepted: 7 May 1951, ex-VC-3 - USS Essex, ex-VC-4 - NAS Atlantic City / USS Leyte, ex-VMF(N)-114 - MCAS Cherry Point / USS Tarawa, ex-USS Boxer, SOC: 1956, " NP-5 "Collins Foundation, Stowe, MA (A)

F4U-5NL c/n ?? Bu.124724 (F-AZEG) accepted: 26 September 1951, ex-VC-3 "NP 22" - USS Valley Forge (Detachment B), ex-VC-3 - USS Boxer (Detachment H), SOC: 1956 - NAS Litchfield, Sold: 7 March 1956 Honduras, ex-Fuerza Area Hondurena FAH-600 - Tegucigalpa AB, soc: 1979, Soccer War Vetern, " P 22 ", Amicale Jean-Baptiste Salis Collection, la Ferte-Alais, France (A)

F4U-5P c/n ?? Bu.123168 (N179NP), ex-F4U-5N, Sold Honduras 27 March 1956, ex-Honduras AF FAH-603 " WR-5 ", Indiana Aviation Museum, Porter County Airport, Valparaiso, IN (A)
note: rebuilt using parts and id of F4U-5N 122179

F4U-5P c/n Bu.122184 (N65WP), accepted: 1948, converted to F4U-5NL, ex-VMF(N)-513 ex-VMF212, ex-NAS Litchfield Park, SOC: 1956, Sold Honduras 27 March 1956, ex-Honduras AF FAH-605 - 2 kills / FG-1D FAS-202 FG-1D FAS 204 17 July 1969, " WF-6 ", James E. Smith, Crystal Lakes Resort, Fortine, MT (A)

F4U-5NL c/n 9873 Bu.121823 (N43RW),ex-MAG-33 / VMF-212, ex-Argentine Navy 0434, ex-3rd Escuadrilla de Ataque (Attack Squad) / Squadron N° 2 "3-A-202", "RW-21 Annie Mo ", Lone Star Flight Museum [Lone Star Flight Museum|(LSFM)]], Galveston, TX (A)

According to Wiki there are 7 -5s still airworthy, though you are actually in aviation circles, so you may know better than I.

 

[C0WB0Y]

The story I've heard about the hangar is the -5 we had participated in the Soccer Wars in Honduras and was found crashed into the side of a mountain. It was then restored and shortly thereafter lost at sea due to running out of gas. It was recovered AGAIN, and restored AGAIN.

I've been told it's the only -5 currently still flying, but then again, it wouldn't be the first tall tale told on the ramp, now would it??

 

[renrich]

Would Howard Pardue have a 5?

 

[Catch22]

The story I've heard about the hangar is the -5 we had participated in the Soccer Wars in Honduras and was found crashed into the side of a mountain. It was then restored and shortly thereafter lost at sea due to running out of gas. It was recovered AGAIN, and restored AGAIN.

I've been told it's the only -5 currently still flying, but then again, it wouldn't be the first tall tale told on the ramp, now would it??

Well. that COULD account for 2 or 3 of them, but that still leaves like 4 or 5.

 

[Clay_Allison]

What specifically about the Klimov engines made them dogs?

Just doing a quick comparison with the AM-38.

The Klimov 105 : 0.89hp/lb, AM38 : 0.94 hp/lb
Klimov weight: 1365 lbs, AM-38 weight: 1940 lbs.
Klimov displacement: 2142 cu/in, AM-38 : 2847 cu/ins.
Klimov supercharger: single stage two speed, AM-38: single speed.
Klimov 2600 rpm takeoff: AM-38 2350rpm.

The Klimov was lighter, had higher rpm, higher compression ratio, better supercharger.

They built over 90,000 of the M-105s. For the lightweight Soviet fighter designs like the Yak, it seems ideally suited.

Look at the HP/LB and add up the number of pounds. There is no replacement for displacement and this seems like a perfect example of this axiom

 

[renrich]

I looked at a source online and it appears that four or five F4U5Ns are flying but the source may be incomplete are inaccurate. I knew a guy in Dallas back in the early 90s, name of Preston, who had a F4U5 that he flew out of Addison airport and he put the Corsair on his front lawn one day along with a Renault tank for a party. I feel pretty sure that one is still flying.

 

[Catch22]

I looked at a source online and it appears that four or five F4U5Ns are flying but the source may be incomplete are inaccurate. I knew a guy in Dallas back in the early 90s, name of Preston, who had a F4U5 that he flew out of Addison airport and he put the Corsair on his front lawn one day along with a Renault tank for a party. I feel pretty sure that one is still flying.

I'd certainly like to crash that party!

 

[renrich]

It was in North Dallas, he had a mansion and the party was wild, meant to celebrate 4th of July, I think.

 

[Von Frag]

I looked at a source online and it appears that four or five F4U5Ns are flying but the source may be incomplete are inaccurate. I knew a guy in Dallas back in the early 90s, name of Preston, who had a F4U5 that he flew out of Addison airport and he put the Corsair on his front lawn one day along with a Renault tank for a party. I feel pretty sure that one is still flying.

Is this one of the two that tried to take off over a couple of Bearcats at an airshow a few years ago? All 4 birds were smashed up pretty bad and the owner of the Cavenaugh flight museum flying one of the Corsairs almost died.

 

[renrich]

The F4U5 that was there escaped damage, I believe, but an F4U4 was badly damaged and it belonged to the Cavanaugh Air Museum. I cannot figure out how there can occur and accident like that while taxiing with those kind of valuable AC and with those kind of pilots not withstanding the poor visibility on the ground.

 

[drgondog]

Is this one of the two that tried to take off over a couple of Bearcats at an airshow a few years ago? All 4 birds were smashed up pretty bad and the owner of the Cavenaugh flight museum flying one of the Corsairs almost died.

There was an accident between and F4U and another ship that I recall in DFW area. One of the high time 109 pilots was nearly killed and may have died later - I think he was flying the Corsair.

IIRC it was formation takeoff and something happened - control wise - but it has been nearly 15+ years if memory serves.

 

[davparlr]

F4U-4 vs. Yak 9

Maybe these datasheets are of interest:

Untitled Document

Maximum speed for the F4U-4 is given as 728 km/h @ 6250 m, which is slightly short of 463 mph. However, it appears that the presence of "two capped pylons" lowered the speed a bit below the maximum for a clean airframe.

I too, have had difficulties with the numbers associated with the referenced document, especially climb. It looks real official but so does all the other references and flight test. I have tried to normalize weight and power and numbers between Dean's data, Navair, and Vought specifications to no avail so far. All are different and very confusing. Most of the data here is Dean's, which is also somewhat suspect, e.g., Dean's data for SL climb at combat power is the same as some test results showing SL climb in Mil power, and 1000 ft/min off the number for Navair document.


This is the data I have

Empty weight
Yak-9U 5512 lbs
F4U-4 9205

Fighter weight
Yak-9U 6591 lbs
F4U-4 12420

Fuel weight
Yak-9U 705 lbs
F4U-4 1068 lbs

Fighter weight, F4U-4 normalized for fuel
Yak-9U 6591
F4U-4 12057

Power SL
Yak-9U 1500 hp
F4u-4 2380

Wing area
Yak-9U 185 sq. ft.
F4U-4 314

Wing Loading
Yak-9U 35 lbs/sq.ft.
F4U-4 38 lbs/sq.ft.

Ceiling
Yak-9U 35k ft.
F4U-4 41k

Power Loading
Yak-9U 4.394
F4U-4 5.07

Airspeed
SL
Yak-9U 357 mph
F4U-4 380

16.5k ft
Yak-9U 417 mph (Max)
F4U-4 425 mph

26k ft.
Yak-9U ukn
F4U-4 446 mph (Max)

Note: F4U-4 is faster than 417 mph (Yak max) from15k ft. to 33k ft. (about Yak service ceiling)

Climb to 16k ft. (5 km)
Yak-9U 5 min.
F4U-4 4.8 min.


Summation from all of this with no power profiling for the Yak. At sea level, the Yak should be able to marginally out turn and out accelerate the F4U-4 due to better power loading and wing loading. Roll rate should benefit the F4U-4. The F4U-4 should be able to out dive and out climb the Yak. The F4U-4 is apparently faster over the entire envelop, significantly above 16k ft. If the F4U-4 maintains airspeed, it should be able to engage and disengage at will. Above 16k, F4U-4 performance advantage should increase dramatically.

Warning to F4U-4 Pilot. This Yak-9U performance is at Mil power (it has no Combat Power capability), and the Yak-9U can maintain this level of performance for an extended amount of time, you cannot. Use high speed diving attack and escape on low flying Yak-9Us. Above 20k, F4U-4 performance should be sufficient, even in Mil power.

Note: After May, '44, the P-51B/D, with better speed, climb, and dive capability, should also easily defeat the Yak-9U at all altitudes, except at around 16k ft, where performance is more evenly matched. At mil power, P-51 performance is similar to the Yak-9U up to 16k but better above.

 

[claidemore]

One performance factor that is always overlooked (probably because we don't know how to calculate it), is acceleration.
The ability to accelerate quicker than the heavier Luftwaffe fighters was what made the Yak 3 (and Yak 1b) so effective against the higher max speed German fighters.
The same would apply to the Yak 9U vs F4U-4. Half the weight, and better power loading. 5.2 or 5.0 lbs/hp for F4U-4 (depending on fuel) and 3.99 for Yak 9U (Sea level horsepower should be 1650 for the VK-107, 1450 @2800m).