Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Oh Man... I believe Bill's example above would give me (and anyone else tasked with flying that mission) cause for concern to put it mildly.
F4U Corsair vs P-51 Mustang (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Catch22
- Start date
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The July '73 copy of Air Progress magazine had an article that pitted an F8F (don't remember if it was a -1 or -2) against the P-51D in several dog fights. There was some mention in the article that the pilots were prohibited from going above 18000 feet, as the Mustang would have a marked edge in performance above that altitude. Apparently, it wasn't just the P-51H model that was a better performer at high altitudes, it sounds like even the "D" model was better...
GregP
Major
The F8F was optimized for fleet defense. Airplanes that attack carriers are almost always below 18,000 feet, and usually well below 10,000 feet. Very few high-altitude attacks were successful against well-defended and maneuvering ships. Even Kamakazes missed, sometimes even when they weren't wounded or on fire or otherwise disabled.
If you prosecuted a low-altitude ship attack, there were very few fighters more formidable to go against than an F8F ... that is, assuming you were attacking in the last 2 weeks of the war or sometime post-WWII. Otherwise, you'd never even run across an F8F during WWII. It made the war, but didn't quite make it into actual aerial combat, so the P-51D was WAY more worrisome since it was around, and possibly in the fray.
If you prosecuted a low-altitude ship attack, there were very few fighters more formidable to go against than an F8F ... that is, assuming you were attacking in the last 2 weeks of the war or sometime post-WWII. Otherwise, you'd never even run across an F8F during WWII. It made the war, but didn't quite make it into actual aerial combat, so the P-51D was WAY more worrisome since it was around, and possibly in the fray.
Sounds like an interesting book. I'm curious where the 2 gallon discrepancy came from (America's Hundred Thousand versus WWII Aircraft Performance).
So this book would explain better how they actually planned the missions based on range and altitude?
I just find it misleading sometimes when people claim how much better the Bearcat's performance was/is than that of the Mustang when that performance edge only exists at lower altitudes...from 20,000 feet and higher it's the other way around...
Shortround6
Major General
The F8F-2 was much better at high altitudes than the F8F-1 but it was also much later in timing.
The F8F-1/2 was also a bit lacking in range, 185 gallons of internal fuel feeding an R-2800 doesn't last a long time.
The F8F-1/2 was also a bit lacking in range, 185 gallons of internal fuel feeding an R-2800 doesn't last a long time.
The -2 was better at high altitudes than the -1, but I still don't think it was as good as the Mustang above 20000 feet...
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Also, shouldn't the F8F-2 then be compared to the P-51H?
Yes, but it's not really comparable at high alitutudes, the "H" model is considerably better up high...at low altitudes they are comparable...
aurora-7
Airman
Engine performance aside, I think the Corsair gets an edge in being able to take a punch better.
Maybe in a game of tag, a Mustang could win by making a first tag but a Corsair can take more hits and keep flying than a Mustang. That big radiator makes for a large target.
Maybe in a game of tag, a Mustang could win by making a first tag but a Corsair can take more hits and keep flying than a Mustang. That big radiator makes for a large target.
drgondog
Major
A lot of books include the AAF Mission planning criteria - and all Performance Analysis delivered to AAF regarding Range/Combat Radius during WWII used it as the basis. That said Dean (IMO) is the best central repository for the Key American Fighters.
Based on Gross weight and SFC tables based on RPM, MP, a Mission Profile was calculated for Warm up/Takeoff, Climb to a specific altitude, accelerate to cruise, go to end of Radius, fight at 15 minutes MP/5 min WEP, cruise back at same altitude and return to base with a 20 minute reserve. Normally the Profiles calculated were for 5000, 15000 and 25000 feet - the adjusted based on Flight tests for 1.) clean/light, 2.) full internal fuel, 3.) external fuel and max full internal fuel/ammo. Additional options included variations for external loads like bombs or bigger tanks, rockets or bombs with different drag loads.
drgondog
Major
Ask any fighter pilot whether he would a.) have an airplane that makes it easier to deliver 'the tag' first - or the one that can take the most punishment? Most pilots that got 'tagged first' died or became POW.
aurora-7
Airman
Wildcats could hold there own against Zeros because they were built more solidly. Survivability counts in air combat too and they're not shooting missiles at each other that can take out an aircraft with one blast.
An F4U is just able to take punishment a P-51 can't.
Shortround6
Major General
Being rugged can get you home, It doesn't often WIN a dog fight although it may keep the enemy from winning (shooting you down)
This plane was hit by flak not air to air fire:
It got the pilot home but it was in no shape to continue to fight.
For some damaged Corsairs
Trying to perform combat maneuvers with parts of the control surfaces missing is going to result in some very sluggish response.
Continuing a dog fight after sustaining sever damage was a rare occurrence.
This plane was hit by flak not air to air fire:
It got the pilot home but it was in no shape to continue to fight.
For some damaged Corsairs
Trying to perform combat maneuvers with parts of the control surfaces missing is going to result in some very sluggish response.
Continuing a dog fight after sustaining sever damage was a rare occurrence.
GregP
Major
Good points, guys, both. I lump the FM-2 in with Wildcats but, if you take the FM-2 as a separate type, it has a VERY low combat loss record, the lowest of all US fighters. And it was in action when the Japanese still has some of their better pilots.
Of course, to me it is still a Wildcat. But the Navy thinks they make a separate type and tracked them that way, or we'd never know about it. The numbers come from a post-war Navy report: Naval Aviation Combat Statistics: World War II.
Also good point Shortround. I think a LOT of planes continued combat after sustaining damage, but very few after sustaining severe damage. If they got a big hit, they limped for home and hollered for protection at the same time, probably while trying to be invisible and finding the nearest cloud. Of course, in the ETO the nearest cloud wasn't usually very far away, as it typically was in the Pacific ... except during the morning rain shower.
Of course, to me it is still a Wildcat. But the Navy thinks they make a separate type and tracked them that way, or we'd never know about it. The numbers come from a post-war Navy report: Naval Aviation Combat Statistics: World War II.
Also good point Shortround. I think a LOT of planes continued combat after sustaining damage, but very few after sustaining severe damage. If they got a big hit, they limped for home and hollered for protection at the same time, probably while trying to be invisible and finding the nearest cloud. Of course, in the ETO the nearest cloud wasn't usually very far away, as it typically was in the Pacific ... except during the morning rain shower.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I could be wrong, (I often am) but the two Corsairs in SR6's post don't appear to have any damage that a Mustang couldn't have survived as well and still come home also. Sometimes it seems people think the P-51 was made of paper mache.
Shortround6
Major General
It's the radiator!!!!
90% of all minor damage to a P-51 will happen to the radiator (it's really a bullet magnet).
In contrast all radial engines will continue to provide combat power with multiple cylinders blown off.
90% of all minor damage to a P-51 will happen to the radiator (it's really a bullet magnet).
In contrast all radial engines will continue to provide combat power with multiple cylinders blown off.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
It's the radiator!!!!
90% of all minor damage to a P-51 will happen to the radiator (it's really a bullet magnet).
In contrast all radial engines will continue to provide combat power with multiple cylinders blown off.
So true!
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Like this?
That sort of looks like a prop strike. Wonder if it occurred on the ground.
Cheers,
Biff
