the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
that's a disgusting shot to use when trying to show the looks of the P-47...........
F4U F6F P-38 P-47 or P-51 Which plane was best by war's end
- Thread starter Sal Monella
- Start date
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cheddar cheese
Major General
I know, I just liked the picture 8)
Better?
Better?
cheddar cheese
Major General
Now I like the P-51 as much as the next man, but theres something about Radial engines that give the P-47 the edge...
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
I still go with the P-38L/F4U-4 their specs are almost Identical The P-38 was better in max acceleration and range. Climb, load capacity and top speed are so very close. the Corsair is carrier capable.
With everything so close the extra acceleration of the Lightning suggests its energy retention is a little better which would give it an edge.
The P-47N was starting to show it's abilities so it might be in the running too.
I'll stick with P-38 as No. 1 and the FF4U-4 as 1.01. they are so close.
wmaxt
With everything so close the extra acceleration of the Lightning suggests its energy retention is a little better which would give it an edge.
The P-47N was starting to show it's abilities so it might be in the running too.
I'll stick with P-38 as No. 1 and the FF4U-4 as 1.01. they are so close.
wmaxt
The P-47N wasn't starting to show its abilities any more than the F4U-4. If I'm not mistaken, the F4U-4 arrived at he front lines in June of '45. The P-47N arrived at the front lines in May of the same year.
I'm obviously a fan of the P-47. 8)
From: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html
Test comparisons were made with a P-47D-30-RE throughout the early portion of the evaluation period. Much to everyone's surprise, the XP-47N, with its greater wingspan and higher weight actually proved to have better roll performance than the D model. At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further.
In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt.
Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling. This combination of wing and engine had pushed the N model up to the top rank of the superlative prop driven fighters then in existence.
I'm obviously a fan of the P-47. 8)
From: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html
Test comparisons were made with a P-47D-30-RE throughout the early portion of the evaluation period. Much to everyone's surprise, the XP-47N, with its greater wingspan and higher weight actually proved to have better roll performance than the D model. At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further.
In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt.
Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling. This combination of wing and engine had pushed the N model up to the top rank of the superlative prop driven fighters then in existence.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
DAVIDICUS said:The P-47N wasn't starting to show its abilities any more than the F4U-4. If I'm not mistaken, the F4U-4 arrived at he front lines in June of '45. The P-47N arrived at the front lines in May of the same year.
I'm obviously a fan of the P-47. 8)
From: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html
Test comparisons were made with a P-47D-30-RE throughout the early portion of the evaluation period. Much to everyone's surprise, the XP-47N, with its greater wingspan and higher weight actually proved to have better roll performance than the D model. At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further.
In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt.
Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling. This combination of wing and engine had pushed the N model up to the top rank of the superlative prop driven fighters then in existence.
That's why I mentioned that I think it was a contender.
I'm not totaly positive but I belive the F4U-4 was introduced in late March early April it had the advantage of being able to be sent to the FSs in 1s and 2s as replacements where the P-47 had to be sent in in squadron strength to reduce the effects of dissimalar aircraft.
The P-51H was being formed up in the war zone so it's speed advantage would have been short lived at best.
Speed isn't the definning attribute to being the best - that speed doesn't last through the first turn. It is an advantage where it can be used.
These aircraft are so close that it pretty much comes down to mission/prefference as to which is really better ie. the P-38 could fly the furthest while the F4U-4 could land on a carrier. Either could take on anybody when they got there.
wmaxt
Actually you said, "... so it might be in the running too."
I was just trying to push it over the edge into actual contender status.
A contender is in the running as opposed to "might be."
There was another post not too long ago that knocked around a hypothetical match up between the F4U-4 and the P-47N. In the end, the consensus seemed to be that at altitudes less than 30K, the Corsair held the edge but over 30K, the Thunderbolt was superior. It's turbo-supercharger maintains a lot more power at high altitudes.
I was just trying to push it over the edge into actual contender status.
A contender is in the running as opposed to "might be."
There was another post not too long ago that knocked around a hypothetical match up between the F4U-4 and the P-47N. In the end, the consensus seemed to be that at altitudes less than 30K, the Corsair held the edge but over 30K, the Thunderbolt was superior. It's turbo-supercharger maintains a lot more power at high altitudes.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
DAVIDICUS said:
Thats ok with me the P-47M/N was a fine aircraft - are there any left?
The P-38s turbos also kept it going above 30k and the power alerons kept it nimble at high speeds without tourturing the pilot.
wmaxt
Today, I think so but I really don't know. I have heard that they don't utilize the turbo-supercharger on P-47's that are still flying as the performance edge they confer is not needed for the softball flights they now do.
September 10th and 11th, at the Cincinnatti-Lunken airshow in Ohio will feature a large fly in of P-47's. "Can You Hear the Thunder" I think they are expecting about seven. I haven't made up my mind as to whether I will attend or not yet.
I thought P-38 pilots were tortured by their environmental controls. I read somewhere that the cockpit heater had two modes, on and off. Switched on, it would pipe uncomfortably hot air into the cockpit. Switched off, you'd freeze.
September 10th and 11th, at the Cincinnatti-Lunken airshow in Ohio will feature a large fly in of P-47's. "Can You Hear the Thunder" I think they are expecting about seven. I haven't made up my mind as to whether I will attend or not yet.
I thought P-38 pilots were tortured by their environmental controls. I read somewhere that the cockpit heater had two modes, on and off. Switched on, it would pipe uncomfortably hot air into the cockpit. Switched off, you'd freeze.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
DAVIDICUS said:
The P-38 had poor environmental systems. It had roll up windows on either side of the canopy but in flight they caused turbulance over the stabalizor and elevator if opened. Heat was finaly adequate in the late J and L models but cooling was never really addressed. I don't know about the issue you mentioned as this is the first time I've heard about it. There are controls for the heat in the cockpit.
I read somewhere that P-47s had Air conditioning in some of the later models, is this true?
wmaxt
Gemhorse
Senior Airman
I recall reading somewhere the P-47 even had an ashtray !!...probably spurious, but they apparently were quite an 'armchair' fighter....I'm not sure how many Thunderbolts are left today - I'd walk on cut glass to see 7 of 'em, if I was stateside, you're really lucky that you've a plentiful quantity available over there...Someone dug a 'razorback' up out of Indonesia awhile back, and it was in our Transport Museum for a spell but I believe it was swapped recently for another restoration project, a P-40 I think,...so they're still out there in the swamps n' jungles.....
I was lead to believe the XP-51G was the fastest Mustang variant, and first flew Aug. 9th 1944, the engine delivering more than 2,000 hp @ 20,000, climbing to that in 3.4 mins. The max speed of 495 mph was attained at 22,800 ft., although the max ceiling was 46,000 ft, the pilot, Robt. 'Bob' Chilton using a Canadian breathing-device that kept pressure in his lungs...North American Aviation were trying to break the 500 mph mark, but only clocked an unofficial 497 mph....
Many thanks for your pic, Wildcat....- During the Pacific, when us colonials were mopping-up the Japs, I believe the Boomerangs were called 'Smokey's', as they marked the enemy positions first with smoke bombs, for the Corsairs to dive-bomb with 1,000 lb 'daisy-cutters' and then strafe.......
Cheers
I was lead to believe the XP-51G was the fastest Mustang variant, and first flew Aug. 9th 1944, the engine delivering more than 2,000 hp @ 20,000, climbing to that in 3.4 mins. The max speed of 495 mph was attained at 22,800 ft., although the max ceiling was 46,000 ft, the pilot, Robt. 'Bob' Chilton using a Canadian breathing-device that kept pressure in his lungs...North American Aviation were trying to break the 500 mph mark, but only clocked an unofficial 497 mph....
Many thanks for your pic, Wildcat....- During the Pacific, when us colonials were mopping-up the Japs, I believe the Boomerangs were called 'Smokey's', as they marked the enemy positions first with smoke bombs, for the Corsairs to dive-bomb with 1,000 lb 'daisy-cutters' and then strafe.......
Cheers
Attachments
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
Gemhorse said:
I've seen 8 Spits flying at the same time, that was pretty good
This "Can you hear the Thunder" event will also feature an actual living Thunderbolt ace and is being billed as the last large reunion there will ever be of Thunderbolts.
I haven't decided if I'm going yet. I'm in California which a couple of thousand miles from Ohio.
I haven't decided if I'm going yet. I'm in California which a couple of thousand miles from Ohio.
The XP-51G was developmental platform for the P-51H.
From: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_12.html
Work on the conversion of the fourth and fifth NA-105 airframes as XP-51Gs began in January 1944, with the Merlin 145M engines arriving in February. Five-bladed propellers were fitted, but the XP-51G was otherwise similar to the XP-51F. The date of the first flight of the XP-51G is a matter of some dispute--most sources claim that first XP-51G was flown by Ed Virgin on August 10, 1944, but the manufacturer credits Bob Chilton with the first flight on August 12, while other s claim that Joe Barton may have taken the XP-51G up for the first time on August 9. The second machine followed on November 14. The engine was the Rolls-Royce Merlin 145M engine rated at 1910 hp., driving a Rotol propeller with five wooden blades (almost identical to the propellers of the Spitfire XIV). However, the XP-51G flew only once with the five-bladed propeller during a 20-minute flight, and all other flying was carried out with a more conventional Aeroproducts Unimatic A-542-B! four-bladed propeller. It was readily apparent that this was the hottest Mustang yet-- maximum speed was 472 mph at 20,750 feet.
The third XP-51F was shipped to the United Kingdom on June 20, 1944 after preliminary flight checks. It was painted in RAF camouflage and was named Mustang V. The RAF serial number was FR409. The A&AEE at Boscombe Down found the Mustang V to weigh only 7855 pounds in interceptor trim. They rated it very highly except for a severe lack of directional stability which required frequent heavy application of rudder in certain flight conditions.
The second XP-51G was shipped to the United Kingdom in February 1945. This plane was also named Mustang V, and bore the RAF serial number FR410. It is widely reported to have achieved a speed of 495 mph during tests at the A&AEE at Boscombe Down in February 1945, although NAA claimed only 472 mph for the other G at the same altitude. However, by this time RAF priorities had changed, and no further flight testing took place. The fate of FR410 after the end of test flying is uncertain.
Specification of XP-51G:
One Rolls-Royce Merlin 145M engine rated at 1910 hp., driving a maximum speed was 472 mph at 20,750 feet, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 3.4 minutes. Service ceiling was 45,700 feet.
Normal range was 485 miles, and maximum range was 1865 miles.
Weights were 5750 lbs. empty, 7265 lbs. normal loaded, and 8885 lbs. maximum.
Wingspan was 37 feet 9 1/4 inches, length was 32 feet 2 3/4 inches, height was 8 feet 8 inches, and wing area was 233 square feet.
From: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_12.html
Work on the conversion of the fourth and fifth NA-105 airframes as XP-51Gs began in January 1944, with the Merlin 145M engines arriving in February. Five-bladed propellers were fitted, but the XP-51G was otherwise similar to the XP-51F. The date of the first flight of the XP-51G is a matter of some dispute--most sources claim that first XP-51G was flown by Ed Virgin on August 10, 1944, but the manufacturer credits Bob Chilton with the first flight on August 12, while other s claim that Joe Barton may have taken the XP-51G up for the first time on August 9. The second machine followed on November 14. The engine was the Rolls-Royce Merlin 145M engine rated at 1910 hp., driving a Rotol propeller with five wooden blades (almost identical to the propellers of the Spitfire XIV). However, the XP-51G flew only once with the five-bladed propeller during a 20-minute flight, and all other flying was carried out with a more conventional Aeroproducts Unimatic A-542-B! four-bladed propeller. It was readily apparent that this was the hottest Mustang yet-- maximum speed was 472 mph at 20,750 feet.
The third XP-51F was shipped to the United Kingdom on June 20, 1944 after preliminary flight checks. It was painted in RAF camouflage and was named Mustang V. The RAF serial number was FR409. The A&AEE at Boscombe Down found the Mustang V to weigh only 7855 pounds in interceptor trim. They rated it very highly except for a severe lack of directional stability which required frequent heavy application of rudder in certain flight conditions.
The second XP-51G was shipped to the United Kingdom in February 1945. This plane was also named Mustang V, and bore the RAF serial number FR410. It is widely reported to have achieved a speed of 495 mph during tests at the A&AEE at Boscombe Down in February 1945, although NAA claimed only 472 mph for the other G at the same altitude. However, by this time RAF priorities had changed, and no further flight testing took place. The fate of FR410 after the end of test flying is uncertain.
Specification of XP-51G:
One Rolls-Royce Merlin 145M engine rated at 1910 hp., driving a maximum speed was 472 mph at 20,750 feet, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 3.4 minutes. Service ceiling was 45,700 feet.
Normal range was 485 miles, and maximum range was 1865 miles.
Weights were 5750 lbs. empty, 7265 lbs. normal loaded, and 8885 lbs. maximum.
Wingspan was 37 feet 9 1/4 inches, length was 32 feet 2 3/4 inches, height was 8 feet 8 inches, and wing area was 233 square feet.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I think it is hard to choose between the P-47N and the F4U-4. Both were 460+ mph class fighters. The P-47N had the range advantage, but the F4U-4 could launch from carriers.
I'd say the F4U-4 was the better interceptor, the P-47N the better patrol/escort plane.
=S=
Lunatic
I'd say the F4U-4 was the better interceptor, the P-47N the better patrol/escort plane.
=S=
Lunatic
evangilder
"Shooter"
A
Anonymous
Guest
evangilder said:
Are you sure they launched off them? W/o a catapult launch it would be hard for the P-47 to get airspeed even using the whole flight deck, though I suppose it would be possible if the CV did 20+ knots into a 20 mph headwind.
Some CVL's were used to transport USAAF aircraft, and some transports were setup with a flat top to do the same job. The planes were then craned off the ship.
=S=
Lunatic
evangilder
"Shooter"
They did launch from the Manila Bay and landed on Okinawa. It was rare, but they did. Obviously, they didn't land on the carrier though.
If they could launch a loaded B-25, the P-47 shouldn't be an issue.
If they could launch a loaded B-25, the P-47 shouldn't be an issue.
